Forum Index > Stewardship > America's National Parks could be one week away from handing campgrounds over to private companies
Previous :: Next Topic  
Author Message
Schroder
Member
Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 5543 | TRs
Location: on the beach
Schroder
  Top

Member
PostMon Nov 04, 2019 11:52 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Trump team has a plan for national parks: Amazon, food trucks and no senior discounts[/size]

Quote:
Leaders of the Interior Department’s “Made in America” Outdoor Recreation Advisory Committee say these changes could make America’s national parks more attractive to a digitally minded younger generation and improve the quality of National Park Service facilities amid a huge maintenance backlog. As part of its plan, the committee calls for blacking out senior discounts at park campgrounds during peak holiday seasons.

Quote:
“If we’d known there’d be a big pushback to proposed blackouts on senior discounts, we might have dropped that off the list,” Crandall said. “All we’re saying is that it may not make sense on peak days like July 4 weekend to let seniors compete with a family with kids for a campsite.”
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
jinx'sboy
Member
Member


Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 494 | TRs
Location: on a great circle route
jinx'sboy
  Top

Member
PostTue Nov 05, 2019 4:23 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
From Tuesday Nov 5 Guardian:
“Trump team plan seeks to ‘modernize' national parks, with wifi and Amazon deliveries”

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/05/trump-advisers-urge-modernization-national-parks
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
catsp
Member
Member


Joined: 15 Jun 2017
Posts: 90 | TRs

catsp
  Top

Member
PostTue Nov 05, 2019 11:58 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
"7. Clarification of current practices that offer 50% senior discounts to campers over the age of 62 (established by the Land and Water Conservation Fund Act) that apply only to base campsite fees, and introduction of new senior fee blackout periods during peak season periods..."

I got no problem with that.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 9048 | TRs
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
  Top

Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostTue Nov 05, 2019 12:13 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
catsp wrote:
"7. Clarification of current practices that offer 50% senior discounts to campers over the age of 62 (established by the Land and Water Conservation Fund Act) that apply only to base campsite fees, and introduction of new senior fee blackout periods during peak season periods..."

I got no problem with that.

I do.

--------------
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
catsp
Member
Member


Joined: 15 Jun 2017
Posts: 90 | TRs

catsp
  Top

Member
PostTue Nov 05, 2019 1:00 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
treeswarper wrote:
catsp wrote:
"7. Clarification of current practices that offer 50% senior discounts to campers over the age of 62 (established by the Land and Water Conservation Fund Act) that apply only to base campsite fees, and introduction of new senior fee blackout periods during peak season periods..."

I got no problem with that.

I do.

I expect many agree with you, and probably for differing reasons, some of which I probably haven't even imagined. But personally, I don't really understand why "seniors" as a group should be getting such discounts in the first place. So I don't have a particular issue with, at a minimum, saying that the discount at least won't apply during peak times.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Doppelganger
Gorecrow



Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 1604 | TRs
Location: Pessimising
Doppelganger
  Top

Gorecrow
PostWed Nov 06, 2019 8:11 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Quote:
Leaders of the Interior Department’s “Made in America” Outdoor Recreation Advisory Committee

I encourage you to take a look at the chosen members of ORAC, it's built by de$ign and for a purpo$e. If you have any spare time to read their minutes there are some gems and minor confessions hiding in there, Zinke getting heckled (within the opening statements of the meeting it occurs in) and a general acceptance and embrasure of the business model among them.

Edit: cleaning up, it's turning into a cat(sp)fight
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski
><((((°>



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 10051 | TRs
Location: tacoma
Ski
  Top

><((((°>
PostWed Nov 06, 2019 9:30 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
catsp wrote:
I don't really understand why "seniors" as a group should be getting such discounts in the first place.

here's the "why":

(1) most of them vote

(2) they represent a larger share of the electorate than other demographics

--------------
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Grannyhiker
Member
Member


Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 3235 | TRs
Location: Gateway to the Columbia Gorge
Grannyhiker
  Top

Member
PostWed Nov 06, 2019 1:18 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
And reason (3):  Many of us seniors are on fixed incomes, which means that every year we get poorer!  Without the discount, I wouldn't be able to afford entrance or campground fees.

--------------
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view.--E.Abbey
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
catsp
Member
Member


Joined: 15 Jun 2017
Posts: 90 | TRs

catsp
  Top

Member
PostWed Nov 06, 2019 2:06 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Doppelganger wrote:
A laughable sequence of statements.

I'm not quite sure why you put that plainly misleading (as to my comments) "sequence" together. I made no comment in connection with what you quote above my comment (though my comment related to the same subject matter).
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
catsp
Member
Member


Joined: 15 Jun 2017
Posts: 90 | TRs

catsp
  Top

Member
PostWed Nov 06, 2019 2:17 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski wrote:
here's the "why":

(1) most of them vote  (2) they represent a larger share of the electorate than other demographics

This doesn't really answer the question I intended, which was more a question (observation really) of why older people should have some of "entitlement" to lower fees. But I read your response as simply saying that they can demand it from their representatives because they can vote them out otherwise. It makes sense in that regard (though only if we assume that those in that group that vote actually care about this particular issue), but that could be said of anything with a large enough voting block. It doesn't really address why they should be treated as "special" based on age alone (which is what I don't see).
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
catsp
Member
Member


Joined: 15 Jun 2017
Posts: 90 | TRs

catsp
  Top

Member
PostWed Nov 06, 2019 2:25 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Grannyhiker wrote:
And reason (3):  Many of us seniors are on fixed incomes, which means that every year we get poorer!  Without the discount, I wouldn't be able to afford entrance or campground fees.

Don't get me wrong, if we want to have a program for discounted fees based on income, that's an entirely different issue. But that's not what we're talking about here - we're talking about a group being to be able to pay less based on nothing more than being older. Just don't see it.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 9048 | TRs
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
  Top

Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostWed Nov 06, 2019 4:55 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
I paid for the pass, I should get what I paid for.  It was something to look forward to about getting older.  .

--------------
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski
><((((°>



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 10051 | TRs
Location: tacoma
Ski
  Top

><((((°>
PostWed Nov 06, 2019 6:01 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
catsp wrote:
This doesn't really answer the question I intended, which was more a question (observation really) of why older people should have some of "entitlement" to lower fees. But I read your response as simply saying that they can demand it from their representatives because they can vote them out otherwise. It makes sense in that regard (though only if we assume that those in that group that vote actually care about this particular issue), but that could be said of anything with a large enough voting block. It doesn't really address why they should be treated as "special" based on age alone (which is what I don't see).

Yes, it does answer the question. You just didn't like the answer, which is the political reality currently.
Yes, if the elected officials don't do what their constituents want them to do, they get voted out.
That's how it works in this country.
Yes, older people should be treated as "special" based on age alone. Why not?

As treeswarper points out above, "It was something to look forward to about getting older."
That was a deal that was made long ago, and people agreed to the terms and paid their tax dollars into some sort of fund.
That Congress or somebody else in Washington DC dipped into that money and pissed it away on some other project, or embezzled it, doesn't change the terms of the agreement.

--------------
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
catsp
Member
Member


Joined: 15 Jun 2017
Posts: 90 | TRs

catsp
  Top

Member
PostWed Nov 06, 2019 9:06 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski wrote:
Yes, it does answer the question. You just didn't like the answer, which is the political reality currently.
Yes, if the elected officials don't do what their constituents want them to do, they get voted out.
That's how it works in this country.
Yes, older people should be treated as "special" based on age alone. Why not?

As treeswarper points out above, "It was something to look forward to about getting older."
That was a deal that was made long ago, and people agreed to the terms and paid their tax dollars into some sort of fund.
That Congress or somebody else in Washington DC dipped into that money and pissed it away on some other project, or embezzled it, doesn't change the terms of the agreement.

I have no problem with the “answer,” to the extent it is one (even if not to the question posed). As for supposed “political reality,” I’m doubtful that “1/2 off even peak usage times” rates as a significant issue across the total silver hair crowd. Maybe some small subset, but a large portion - large enough to run someone out of office? Doubtful. But if there is actually a number with enough political power, have at it. It is indeed the way it works.

As far as older people being treated “special” because “why not?” Not really an argument in any way unique to that group. Give half off to hazel eyed people as special because, ya know, why not?

As to some supposed “deal” and people paid taxes into a “fund” etc etc., not sure what “agreement” you’re talking about. The law said one thing at one point, it was changed to say something else at another point, and will be changed yet again at another point. I believe it was a famous politician that said: “I am altering the deal, pray that I don’t alter it any further.”

But that’s all beside my original and continuing point: I was simply observing that I see nothing that should entitle this particular group to this handout in the first place. (Just that they want it, looked forward to it, and believe they have the political power for it. Again, if you do, have at it. But that’s not my point.) So because IMO this is an undeserved/unearned/unjustified handout, I have no problem with limiting that handout to non-peak times, and letting them pay full freight during peak times.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Doppelganger
Gorecrow



Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 1604 | TRs
Location: Pessimising
Doppelganger
  Top

Gorecrow
PostThu Nov 07, 2019 7:02 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
catsp wrote:
Doppelganger wrote:
A laughable sequence of statements.

I'm not quite sure why you put that plainly misleading (as to my comments) "sequence" together. I made no comment in connection with what you quote above my comment (though my comment related to the same subject matter).

You are correct, I mistakenly omitted your endorsement of Crandall's proposal to remove senior discounts on base campsite fees, as well as Crandall's proposal to introduce new senior discount blackout dates. Thanks, I've fixed that now.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
  Display:     All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Forum Index > Stewardship > America's National Parks could be one week away from handing campgrounds over to private companies
  Happy Birthday Damian, chefothefuture, Dogman, ridgescrambler, Bryan K, Eaglecadd!
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
   Use Disclaimer Powered by phpBB Privacy Policy