Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > America's National Parks could be one week away from handing campgrounds over to private companies
Previous :: Next Topic  
Author Message
Schroder
Member
Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 5741 | TRs
Location: on the beach
Schroder
  Top

Member
PostMon Nov 04, 2019 12:52 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Trump team has a plan for national parks: Amazon, food trucks and no senior discounts[/size]

Quote:
Leaders of the Interior Department’s “Made in America” Outdoor Recreation Advisory Committee say these changes could make America’s national parks more attractive to a digitally minded younger generation and improve the quality of National Park Service facilities amid a huge maintenance backlog. As part of its plan, the committee calls for blacking out senior discounts at park campgrounds during peak holiday seasons.

Quote:
“If we’d known there’d be a big pushback to proposed blackouts on senior discounts, we might have dropped that off the list,” Crandall said. “All we’re saying is that it may not make sense on peak days like July 4 weekend to let seniors compete with a family with kids for a campsite.”
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
jinx'sboy
Member
Member


Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 574 | TRs
Location: on a great circle route
jinx'sboy
  Top

Member
PostTue Nov 05, 2019 5:23 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
From Tuesday Nov 5 Guardian:
“Trump team plan seeks to ‘modernize' national parks, with wifi and Amazon deliveries”

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/05/trump-advisers-urge-modernization-national-parks
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 9755 | TRs
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
  Top

Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostTue Nov 05, 2019 1:13 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
catsp wrote:
"7. Clarification of current practices that offer 50% senior discounts to campers over the age of 62 (established by the Land and Water Conservation Fund Act) that apply only to base campsite fees, and introduction of new senior fee blackout periods during peak season periods..."

I got no problem with that.

I do.

--------------
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski
><((((°>



Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 11141 | TRs
Location: tacoma
Ski
  Top

><((((°>
PostWed Nov 06, 2019 10:30 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
catsp wrote:
I don't really understand why "seniors" as a group should be getting such discounts in the first place.

here's the "why":

(1) most of them vote

(2) they represent a larger share of the electorate than other demographics

--------------
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Grannyhiker
Member
Member


Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 3287 | TRs
Location: Gateway to the Columbia Gorge
Grannyhiker
  Top

Member
PostWed Nov 06, 2019 2:18 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
And reason (3):  Many of us seniors are on fixed incomes, which means that every year we get poorer!  Without the discount, I wouldn't be able to afford entrance or campground fees.

--------------
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view.--E.Abbey
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 9755 | TRs
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
  Top

Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostWed Nov 06, 2019 5:55 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
I paid for the pass, I should get what I paid for.  It was something to look forward to about getting older.  .

--------------
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski
><((((°>



Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 11141 | TRs
Location: tacoma
Ski
  Top

><((((°>
PostWed Nov 06, 2019 7:01 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
catsp wrote:
This doesn't really answer the question I intended, which was more a question (observation really) of why older people should have some of "entitlement" to lower fees. But I read your response as simply saying that they can demand it from their representatives because they can vote them out otherwise. It makes sense in that regard (though only if we assume that those in that group that vote actually care about this particular issue), but that could be said of anything with a large enough voting block. It doesn't really address why they should be treated as "special" based on age alone (which is what I don't see).

Yes, it does answer the question. You just didn't like the answer, which is the political reality currently.
Yes, if the elected officials don't do what their constituents want them to do, they get voted out.
That's how it works in this country.
Yes, older people should be treated as "special" based on age alone. Why not?

As treeswarper points out above, "It was something to look forward to about getting older."
That was a deal that was made long ago, and people agreed to the terms and paid their tax dollars into some sort of fund.
That Congress or somebody else in Washington DC dipped into that money and pissed it away on some other project, or embezzled it, doesn't change the terms of the agreement.

--------------
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
kiliki
Member
Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Posts: 1628 | TRs
Location: Seattle
kiliki
  Top

Member
PostThu Nov 07, 2019 10:22 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Getting back to the campground development and privatization issue. You don't have to rely on media sources you don't trust; you can read the commission's recommendations on their own and judge for yourself. We've known that this commission has been stacked with campground/concession industry people since it's inception and that their motives are profit, pure and simple. This is something that has been troubling to NPS employees since the start. This is not simply a matter of a concession employee rather than a ranger cleaning the toilets. It's private enterprise trying to monetize camping at NPs. Included in the proposal are permissions to bypass environmental review for campground expansion and development.

The parts about adding more types of concessions (food trucks, Amazon delivery) to make them appeal to millennials is just odd. Campgrounds are already wildly popular.

In case anyone doesn't want to read the commission document, I think the LA Times does a good job of summing up.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2019-11-04/trump-administration-privatize-national-parks-tourism
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 9755 | TRs
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
  Top

Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostThu Nov 07, 2019 10:38 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
The Geezer Pass is hardly a handout anymore.  I turned old enough for it just in time for a rate hike.  I believe it was $20 but then jumped up to $80 when I came of age. 

One can also buy it by the year for $20 and that is used as a "payment" which will eventually get you the full price lifetime (left) deal. 

We pay for it. 

Many campgrounds/parks are only open May through September.   So, when is the peak season when a place is only open during the peak season?

--------------
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
kiliki
Member
Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Posts: 1628 | TRs
Location: Seattle
kiliki
  Top

Member
PostThu Nov 07, 2019 10:45 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Slugman wrote:
The NPS really does not know how to run a campground. Look at Kalaloch in ONP, very poorly run. The best campsites are on the bluff overlooking the ocean, the worst are back in the woods near to the highway. So for most of the year what do they do? Close 2/3rds of the campground, so that people are forced to camp in lousy spots while a few feet away are the best spots in the campground. A simple changing of the gate locations could allow for closing the unused poor campsites while leaving the best ones open. Then they refuse to electrify the campsites, but allow generators. This is so stupid and so completely destroys the peace and quiet that I  will no longer camp there.

When I camp at places run by Hoodoo recreation or similar outfits, the campgrounds are clean and inexpensive. And I have stayed at plenty, dozens, here in WA, in OR, and CA.

I think people are forgetting these are car camping campgrounds catering to motorhomes as much as tents. Ever been to Yellowstone? The campgrounds are like little cities. They have stores, restaurants, laundromats, etc. Now someone is going to panic over a food truck? Holy cow.

The NPS closes "loops" while keeping one loop open so that they only have to keep one restroom open and can focus maintenance efforts on one smaller location rather than spread out through the whole place. This is how these campgrounds were designed to work, starting in the 1930s with the advent of the loop design, the continued in the late 1950s/early 1960s in the huge Mission 66 era of development where loop type campgrounds became the norm. Do you imagine that a contractor, who wants to make as much money as possible, will keep all the loops with all the restrooms open during slow times? I don't. I also question the "simple moving of gates" on these loop type campgrounds.

As far as "refusing" to electrify the campsites, I suppose that's fair, but it's also a popular policy. RVers have complained about this since the 1950s but the fact is, tent camping is more popular and tent campers dislike RVs. Tent camping has long been seen, among NPS planners, as a way for families and people with modest incomes to afford to stay in NPs. They recognize that the concession lodgings are too expensive for most people.

Then, there's also the fact that concessioners are a huge source of complaints for the NPS. They tend to overcharge and provide poor service. Ever eaten at Paradise Inn? Or go look at reviews for Lake Crescent Lodge. Slugman, I'm glad you've had good experiences with a particular concessioner, but that is not the norm in NPs.

Finally--yes, at Yellowstone (Grand Canyon and Yosemite, too) there are campgrounds that are like mini cities. They exist, though it's not the norm in NPs. But is that what we want for all of our NPs?
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Malachai Constant
Member
Member


Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 14695 | TRs
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny
Malachai Constant
  Top

Member
PostThu Nov 07, 2019 1:49 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
The unfairness of the Geezer Pass is pretty small potatoes in the grand scheme of things compared to income inequality, racial, sexual, and age discrimination. While you are at it why not eliminate military, volunteer, 4th grade, and access passes. huh.gif

--------------
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 9755 | TRs
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
  Top

Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostThu Nov 07, 2019 1:54 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Define "handout". 

My definition would be --free.  I PAID REAL MONEY for that pass, plus years and years of paying taxes.  Do you pay taxes?  Do you think that seniors do not pay taxes?  Yup, I still  pay income and all the assorted state and property taxes.    Using your logic, perhaps we seniors should not have to pay school levy taxes as we have no kids in school.  I'm giving them a ---handout! 

I didn't go on many trips for fun while working and paying taxes.   I am doing that now, and still paying taxes plus camping fees. 

I do not get anything--for free, except sometimes my friends with gardens give me corn and carrots. 

Dunno what YOUR definition of handout is, but I bet it is wrong.

--------------
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski
><((((°>



Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 11141 | TRs
Location: tacoma
Ski
  Top

><((((°>
PostThu Nov 07, 2019 1:57 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
treeswarper wrote:
"...my friends with gardens give me corn and carrots..."

what? no zucchini?!?!? dizzy.gif

something tells me that the message just isn't getting through.

--------------
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 9755 | TRs
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
  Top

Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostThu Nov 07, 2019 2:04 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski, I do not care for zucchini.  I can't even spell it without looking it up!  I put two straw bales in my front yard and amused my neighbors.  I was able to grow some nice tomatoes and actually "handed out" a few to the neighbors. 

Got raspberries going too.  The soil here is sand and it takes a bit of work to get it garden ready.
Automatic sprinklers are a godsend.  I pay for my water also.   biggrin.gif

--------------
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Schroder
Member
Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 5741 | TRs
Location: on the beach
Schroder
  Top

Member
PostFri Nov 08, 2019 8:52 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
I paid for that Senior Pass and received a contract on the conditions it could be used - including a 50% discount on campsite fees for the remainder of my life. They would be breaking that contract. If they want to change the conditions for future passes and call it something else, that's their prerogative.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
  Display:     All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > America's National Parks could be one week away from handing campgrounds over to private companies
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
   Use Disclaimer Powered by phpBB Privacy Policy