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Doppelganger
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PostThu Nov 07, 2019 7:10 am 
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Ski wrote:
As treeswarper points out above, "It was something to look forward to about getting older."
That was a deal that was made long ago, and people agreed to the terms and paid their tax dollars into some sort of fund.
That Congress or somebody else in Washington DC dipped into that money and pissed it away on some other project, or embezzled it, doesn't change the terms of the agreement.

I am 1000% behind this. Call me stupid or naive, the outdoors was on my Look Forward To list too. This is the plan I grew up with, and silently agreed to. When I find myself at a point in life when free time becomes more common, I hope that our representatives have preserved some means for us to enjoy whatever pursuits we've chosen in our respective old ages.
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Doppelganger
Gorecrow



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PostThu Nov 07, 2019 7:35 am 
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catsp wrote:
This doesn't really answer the question I intended, which was more a question (observation really)

catsp wrote:
I expect many agree with you, and probably for differing reasons, some of which I probably haven't even imagined.

I guess the question is as hard to frame as the answer. There are too many factors to make this question a simple one, and the same holds true for any answer.

catsp wrote:
we're talking about a group being to be able to pay less based on nothing more than being older. Just don't see it.

I think that base age is just one of the most simple factors. Income, employment, health, mobility, transportation, mental acuity, a voluntary scale, maybe each of these factors could be assessed together someday. Maybe there is some consideration of some or all of these measures when senior fees are assessed, I have not ever been involved in those processes. What other factors do you feel should be taken into account to level the fee playing field?

Now if hazel eyed people were made to spend the last 63 years driving kids around in a loud yellow ^#&*ing bus, had a terrible case of resultant PTSD and a 2pack a day habit - yes, dammit, give them their hazel pass, they have earned it! The senior discounts are not much different in my eyes.
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catsp
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PostThu Nov 07, 2019 7:49 am 
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Doppelganger wrote:
You are correct, I mistakenly omitted your endorsement of Crandall's proposal to remove senior discounts on base campsite fees, as well as Crandall's proposal to introduce new senior discount blackout dates. Thanks, I've fixed that now.

I expressed my opinion on one point. You apparently disagree - that's fine. I guess I just don't see the reason or purpose for linking me with this other person. Maybe it's just to saddle the opinion I expressed with the "baggage" you apparently believe this other person has. No big either way.
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Doppelganger
Gorecrow



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PostThu Nov 07, 2019 8:18 am 
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catsp wrote:
Doppelganger wrote:
You are correct, I mistakenly omitted your endorsement of Crandall's proposal to remove senior discounts on base campsite fees, as well as Crandall's proposal to introduce new senior discount blackout dates. Thanks, I've fixed that now.

I expressed my opinion on one point. You apparently disagree - that's fine. I guess I just don't see the reason or purpose for linking me with this other person. Maybe it's just to saddle the opinion I expressed with the "baggage" you apparently believe this other person has. No big either way.

lol.gif lol.gif You quoted the proposal directly when you said that you did not have a problem with Crandall's proposal, not I! dizzy.gif Whether Crandall's proposals are endorsed by you or not are really not consequential at this point, but we can keep debating that specific point if you like?

PAGE 10 ITEM 7 https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1892/upload/ORAC_recommendations_letter_to_DOI-Oct102019.pdf
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catsp
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PostThu Nov 07, 2019 8:24 am 
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Doppelganger wrote:
I am 1000% behind this. Call me stupid or naive, the outdoors was on my Look Forward To list too. This is the plan I grew up with, and silently agreed to. When I find myself at a point in life when free time becomes more common, I hope that our representatives have preserved some means for us to enjoy whatever pursuits we've chosen in our respective old ages.

We're not talking about taking away the outdoors. We're talking about whether older people should get discounts simply because they have lived a certain number of years.

Doppelganger wrote:
some means for us to enjoy whatever pursuits we've chosen in our respective old ages.

On that reasoning, Congress should also mandate "senior" discounts for golf, trips to Reno, sitting in McDonald's with a small coffee, and whatever other pursuits in which seniors engage for recreation.

Doppelganger wrote:
Now if hazel eyed people were made to spend the last 63 years driving kids around in a loud yellow ^#&*ing bus, had a terrible case of resultant PTSD and a 2pack a day habit - yes, dammit, give them their hazel pass, they have earned it! The senior discounts are not much different in my eyes.

And that's the apparent crux of our disagreement. It sounds like you believe that simply being an adult for a number of years has "earned" seniors something - that they are special as a result. I simply disagree. I believe seniors have only earned what they have, well, actually "earned." (But again, I continue to talk about seniors as a group - not any particular individual.)

Doppelganger wrote:
What other factors do you feel should be taken into account to level the fee playing field?

Don't put that on me, Ricky Bobby. Start with we all pay the same. If there are situations or factors that need to be addressed (say, for example, income level - which not everyone would agree with), then try to address it if it can be done in some reasonable way. If it can't, then don't.

I understand that people of all ages love discounts. But to love, want and desire a discount is not the same as being "entitled" to it. JMO.
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catsp
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PostThu Nov 07, 2019 8:36 am 
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Doppelganger wrote:
lol.gif lol.gif

smile.gif  smile.gif

Doppelganger wrote:
You quoted the proposal directly

Absolutely true.

Doppelganger wrote:
when you said that you did not have a problem with Crandall's proposal

Close enough at this point.

Doppelganger wrote:
dizzy.gif

smile.gif

Doppelganger wrote:
Whether Crandall's proposals are endorsed by you or not are really not consequential at this point, but we can keep debating that specific point if you like?

You're correct that it's a minor point (the one I tried to make), as well as one that apparently I have been unable to convey in any event. Like I wrote, no big.

smile.gif
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kiliki
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PostThu Nov 07, 2019 9:22 am 
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Getting back to the campground development and privatization issue. You don't have to rely on media sources you don't trust; you can read the commission's recommendations on their own and judge for yourself. We've known that this commission has been stacked with campground/concession industry people since it's inception and that their motives are profit, pure and simple. This is something that has been troubling to NPS employees since the start. This is not simply a matter of a concession employee rather than a ranger cleaning the toilets. It's private enterprise trying to monetize camping at NPs. Included in the proposal are permissions to bypass environmental review for campground expansion and development.

The parts about adding more types of concessions (food trucks, Amazon delivery) to make them appeal to millennials is just odd. Campgrounds are already wildly popular.

In case anyone doesn't want to read the commission document, I think the LA Times does a good job of summing up.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2019-11-04/trump-administration-privatize-national-parks-tourism
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treeswarper
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PostThu Nov 07, 2019 9:38 am 
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The Geezer Pass is hardly a handout anymore.  I turned old enough for it just in time for a rate hike.  I believe it was $20 but then jumped up to $80 when I came of age. 

One can also buy it by the year for $20 and that is used as a "payment" which will eventually get you the full price lifetime (left) deal. 

We pay for it. 

Many campgrounds/parks are only open May through September.   So, when is the peak season when a place is only open during the peak season?

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kiliki
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PostThu Nov 07, 2019 9:45 am 
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Slugman wrote:
The NPS really does not know how to run a campground. Look at Kalaloch in ONP, very poorly run. The best campsites are on the bluff overlooking the ocean, the worst are back in the woods near to the highway. So for most of the year what do they do? Close 2/3rds of the campground, so that people are forced to camp in lousy spots while a few feet away are the best spots in the campground. A simple changing of the gate locations could allow for closing the unused poor campsites while leaving the best ones open. Then they refuse to electrify the campsites, but allow generators. This is so stupid and so completely destroys the peace and quiet that I  will no longer camp there.

When I camp at places run by Hoodoo recreation or similar outfits, the campgrounds are clean and inexpensive. And I have stayed at plenty, dozens, here in WA, in OR, and CA.

I think people are forgetting these are car camping campgrounds catering to motorhomes as much as tents. Ever been to Yellowstone? The campgrounds are like little cities. They have stores, restaurants, laundromats, etc. Now someone is going to panic over a food truck? Holy cow.

The NPS closes "loops" while keeping one loop open so that they only have to keep one restroom open and can focus maintenance efforts on one smaller location rather than spread out through the whole place. This is how these campgrounds were designed to work, starting in the 1930s with the advent of the loop design, the continued in the late 1950s/early 1960s in the huge Mission 66 era of development where loop type campgrounds became the norm. Do you imagine that a contractor, who wants to make as much money as possible, will keep all the loops with all the restrooms open during slow times? I don't. I also question the "simple moving of gates" on these loop type campgrounds.

As far as "refusing" to electrify the campsites, I suppose that's fair, but it's also a popular policy. RVers have complained about this since the 1950s but the fact is, tent camping is more popular and tent campers dislike RVs. Tent camping has long been seen, among NPS planners, as a way for families and people with modest incomes to afford to stay in NPs. They recognize that the concession lodgings are too expensive for most people.

Then, there's also the fact that concessioners are a huge source of complaints for the NPS. They tend to overcharge and provide poor service. Ever eaten at Paradise Inn? Or go look at reviews for Lake Crescent Lodge. Slugman, I'm glad you've had good experiences with a particular concessioner, but that is not the norm in NPs.

Finally--yes, at Yellowstone (Grand Canyon and Yosemite, too) there are campgrounds that are like mini cities. They exist, though it's not the norm in NPs. But is that what we want for all of our NPs?
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catsp
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PostThu Nov 07, 2019 9:56 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
The Geezer Pass is hardly a handout anymore.  ... We pay for it.

You pay less (a lot less) for it than others. It's a handout. (And still quite the bargain.)

kiliki wrote:
Getting back to the campground development and privatization issue.

The issue arises from a lack of funding. (Or the issue uses a lack of funding for cover - whichever you prefer.) So the fact we have an ostensibly large group not pulling their weight on providing that funding could certainly be considered part of the problem.
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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Nov 07, 2019 12:49 pm 
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The unfairness of the Geezer Pass is pretty small potatoes in the grand scheme of things compared to income inequality, racial, sexual, and age discrimination. While you are at it why not eliminate military, volunteer, 4th grade, and access passes. huh.gif

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treeswarper
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PostThu Nov 07, 2019 12:54 pm 
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Define "handout". 

My definition would be --free.  I PAID REAL MONEY for that pass, plus years and years of paying taxes.  Do you pay taxes?  Do you think that seniors do not pay taxes?  Yup, I still  pay income and all the assorted state and property taxes.    Using your logic, perhaps we seniors should not have to pay school levy taxes as we have no kids in school.  I'm giving them a ---handout! 

I didn't go on many trips for fun while working and paying taxes.   I am doing that now, and still paying taxes plus camping fees. 

I do not get anything--for free, except sometimes my friends with gardens give me corn and carrots. 

Dunno what YOUR definition of handout is, but I bet it is wrong.

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Ski
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PostThu Nov 07, 2019 12:57 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
"...my friends with gardens give me corn and carrots..."

what? no zucchini?!?!? dizzy.gif

something tells me that the message just isn't getting through.

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treeswarper
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PostThu Nov 07, 2019 1:04 pm 
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Ski, I do not care for zucchini.  I can't even spell it without looking it up!  I put two straw bales in my front yard and amused my neighbors.  I was able to grow some nice tomatoes and actually "handed out" a few to the neighbors. 

Got raspberries going too.  The soil here is sand and it takes a bit of work to get it garden ready.
Automatic sprinklers are a godsend.  I pay for my water also.   biggrin.gif

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Doppelganger
Gorecrow



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PostThu Nov 07, 2019 1:16 pm 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
The unfairness of the Geezer Pass is pretty small potatoes in the grand scheme of things compared to income inequality, racial, sexual, and age discrimination. While you are at it why not eliminate military, volunteer, 4th grade, and access passes. huh.gif

ORAC says "oh yeah that's how we like it, what other fees would you hike you dirty little peak bagger, we're almost finished"
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