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moonspots Happy Curmudgeon
Joined: 03 Feb 2007 Posts: 2456 | TRs | Pics Location: North Dakota |
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moonspots
Happy Curmudgeon
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Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:31 am
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Bosterson wrote: | Do local independent gear shops even still exist? Sigh |
backcountrygear.com in Eugene, Oregon. My 1st "go-to" gear shop. A VERY well stocked physical presense, and great online. My next favorite is Moosejaw.
"Out, OUT you demons of Stupidity"! - St Dogbert, patron Saint of Technology
"Out, OUT you demons of Stupidity"! - St Dogbert, patron Saint of Technology
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BigBrunyon Member
Joined: 19 Mar 2015 Posts: 1450 | TRs | Pics Location: the fitness gyms!! |
I'm continuing to use the word backcountry!! They ain't sued me yet!!! Say something!!
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moonspots Happy Curmudgeon
Joined: 03 Feb 2007 Posts: 2456 | TRs | Pics Location: North Dakota |
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moonspots
Happy Curmudgeon
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:57 am
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BigBrunyon wrote: | I'm continuing to use the word backcountry!! They ain't sued me yet!!! Say something!! |
Backcounty's CEO "apology" didn't impress me. And I've removed the goat from the window in my shop. I do feel bad for the folks who work there and are (probably) taking the brunt of the backlash via phone/chat.
"Out, OUT you demons of Stupidity"! - St Dogbert, patron Saint of Technology
"Out, OUT you demons of Stupidity"! - St Dogbert, patron Saint of Technology
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Randito Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008 Posts: 9495 | TRs | Pics Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:32 am
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FWIW: They've now fired the law firm that was doing the suing
https://gearjunkie.com/backcountry-fires-law-firm-drops-lawsuits-rebuilding-relationships
But I think they've done a ton of damage to their brand, and it take a while to recover, if ever.
To me it points up one of the aspects of the way the trademark and patent office works in the states. Essentially they do virtually nothing in terms of research when granting patents and trademarks. This leaves it up to individual trademark holders to enforce trademarks via civil lawsuits. It is only in court where the validity of a trademark is examined in detail and then only if the defending party chooses to go to court rather than settle. Since going to court is extremely expensive, most firms choose to settle.
The Marquette Backcountry Ski firm is amazing in that they chose to fight rather than settle. They won in the court of public opinion. But I'll bet their legal fees have eaten up all their profits.
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Malachai Constant Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 16088 | TRs | Pics Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
RandyHiker wrote: | To me it points up one of the aspects of the way the trademark and patent office works in the states. Essentially they do virtually nothing in terms of research when granting patents and trademarks. This leaves it up to individual trademark holders to enforce trademarks via civil lawsuits. It is only in court where the validity of a trademark is examined in detail and then only if the defending party chooses to go to court rather than settle. Since going to court is extremely expensive, most firms choose to settle. |
I have to defend my occupation. First Trademarks:
There are several types. First, common law trademarks are not examined at all. Second, State trademarks are simply registered without examination. State and common law trademarks must be proven in court and do not have a presumption of validity. Federal trademarks are examined but are subject to opposition and cancellation actions in the patent office. Challenges are often a slam dunk if the evidence exists and prudent companies and attorneys drop the mark. If they have been used for a number of years without challenge they have a stronger presumption. Overzealous attorneys can give the process a bad name.
Next Patents:
Patents are examined in the Patent Office usually over a two year period. The quality of examination is dependent on the field of art and the particular examiner. Examination is usually quite good for simple mechanical inventions. It is terrible for complex inventions such as software and semiconductors. An experienced examiner in these field can easily get a 6 figure income in industry or law firm. Many examiners are using their position for job training. I have had had examiners ask me to get them a job at my client of firm. Due to the America Invents Act patents are open to challenge in the patent office more easily than before. IMO patents are pretty much useless now unless you have millions available to defend them. Large companies such as MSFT, BA, or Intel have portfolios with tens of thousands of patents or hire specialized companies to defend and inforce patents against competitors. The day of the individual inventor is long gone.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Randito Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008 Posts: 9495 | TRs | Pics Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:24 pm
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Malachai Constant wrote: | The day of the individual inventor is long gone. |
What I've observed personally in the software business is individual "inventors" file for a wide range of patents for methods already in common usage. Then "patent vulture" firms buy up those patents and file lawsuits in Marshall county Texas. The jury pool in Marshall county has a very low rate of high school graduation and isn't well suited to evaluating a technical patent on its merits.
By the time I left MSFT, we had stopped filing patents for software innovations and instead adopted a practice of blogging about innovations. Blog posts are far cheaper to deploy than a patent filing, but provide an essentially equivalent level of protection from "patent vulture" firms suing in hope of a settlement on undisclosed terms.
The lack of even basic evaluation by the patent office when granting patents is well illustrated by the "Method of swinging a swing" patent
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2178-boy-takes-swing-at-us-patents/
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Malachai Constant Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 16088 | TRs | Pics Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
That is what we call a “protective publication” , it prevents another from patenting your invention. Agree about software patents SCOTUS rulings have just about eliminated valid ones. I hade an examiner one who did not know what an “object” is in software, he kept insisting it was a physical object. I ceased having any individual inventors as clients back in the 90’s.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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texasbb Misplaced Texan
Joined: 30 Mar 2009 Posts: 1153 | TRs | Pics Location: Tri-Cities, WA |
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texasbb
Misplaced Texan
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:07 pm
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Malachai Constant wrote: | Agree about software patents SCOTUS rulings have just about eliminated valid ones. |
Thank goodness. Software is just algorithms and algorithms are just math. It's ridiculous to allow patenting such.
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Cyclopath Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012 Posts: 7695 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:17 pm
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Software isn't just math.
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Malachai Constant Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 16088 | TRs | Pics Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
True dat, some software is intensely clever and economical and takes creativity to make. In addition most devices we use are a combination of software and hardware which creates something previously unknown. The famous gif patent using LZW compression was only a few lines of FORTRAN and made the early internet practical.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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texasbb Misplaced Texan
Joined: 30 Mar 2009 Posts: 1153 | TRs | Pics Location: Tri-Cities, WA |
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texasbb
Misplaced Texan
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:59 pm
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Cyclopath wrote: | Software isn't just math. |
"I am told that the courts are trying to make a distinction between mathematical algorithms and nonmathematical algorithms. To a computer scientist, this makes no sense, because every algorithm is as mathematical as anything could be. An algorithm is an abstract concept unrelated to physical laws of the universe." --Donald Knuth (See here.)
More here and here for a start.
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texasbb Misplaced Texan
Joined: 30 Mar 2009 Posts: 1153 | TRs | Pics Location: Tri-Cities, WA |
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texasbb
Misplaced Texan
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:04 pm
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Malachai Constant wrote: | some software is intensely clever and economical and takes creativity to make. |
Which makes it more like a story than an invention. Software should be protected by copyright, not patent.
Malachai Constant wrote: | The famous gif patent using LZW compression was only a few lines of FORTRAN and made the early internet practical. |
But the underlying algorithm was discovered, not invented.
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Cyclopath Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012 Posts: 7695 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:19 pm
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texasbb wrote: | "I am told that the courts are trying to make a distinction between mathematical algorithms and nonmathematical algorithms. To a computer scientist, this makes no sense, because every algorithm is as mathematical as anything could be. An algorithm is an abstract concept unrelated to physical laws of the universe." --Donald Knuth (See here.)
More here and here for a start. |
I'm a software developer. The above is poetry, not a description of reality.
Software is behavior.
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Cyclopath Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012 Posts: 7695 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:20 pm
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texasbb wrote: | But the underlying algorithm was discovered, not invented. |
This is true in exactly the same way as saying a child is discovered not born, they're ultimately just made of DNA which is a 4 letter alphabet.
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Malachai Constant Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 16088 | TRs | Pics Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Machines are patentable, by operation of Boolean algebra they can be translated into a series of interconnected logic gates. The gates are easily translated into software which is arguably an algorithm. Under this criteria nothing is patentable. Of course modern software is enormously more complex than linear algorithms. Similarly all music can be translated through Fourier transforms into a series of sine waves. If you pursue this to far you enter into a realm of existential philosophy. Where you may not want to enter. If existence is me a rely a series of equations what is reality, is there right, or wrong? Is got the ghost in the machine? Etc all we are is dust in the wind
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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