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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
Member
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 Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:34 pm |
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| Cyclopath wrote: | | It amazes me that so many hikers are against hiking, but the truth is they're only against other people hiking.
Tram is a cool strawman by the way. |
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9513 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:42 pm |
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| slabbyd wrote: | | Couple people have mentioned road closures as the solution and I agree! Between a lack of timber harvesting, increasing extreme weather and declining FSR budgets you’d think it would be happening. But the FSR seems surprisingly adept at maintaining roads well enough. One can dream..... |
For example: Williams Lake and Dutch Miller Gap are lonelier now that the road is closed to cars at Dingford. The cruddy condition of the road had already cut usage.
Snoqualmie, Deer and Bear Lakes are far less abused today compared to the time I first visited in the '60s when the Taylor River road was semi-intact. Of course -- a factor then was almost no one was cooking with a stove -- so the area suffered from firewood gathering and cook fire debris.
But I think the Enchantments are already famous enough that simply closing the road at Bridge Creek will not restore any semblance of solitude.
Personally I don't think that should be a priority -- I would favor increasing the permit quota for the area -- at least if a "Pack it all out" requirement was added. (Mt Adams and Mt Rainier already have this requirement on popular routes) Hundreds of people can be seen on a fair weather day on the Muir snowfield or on the Mt Adams south route. It's not solitude, but these are still awesome places to go.
One aspect of the permit system that I really, really don't like are the "These are your dates" aspect. I feel this causes people to hike and climb in poor weather, exposing them to greater risk -- The Mt St Helens permit system being the worse offender IMHO in this regard.
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Brian R
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Joined: 10 Feb 2018
Posts: 501 | TRs | Pics
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Brian R
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Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:04 pm |
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You mean this Williams Lake?
or this one?
or the Chain Lakes above it?
Context is important. So is what we define as "wilderness."
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Backpacker Joe
Blind Hiker
Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 23956 | TRs | Pics
Location: Cle Elum |
| Brian R wrote: | | You mean this Williams Lake? |
Yes he means that Williams lake. I understand your point, those pictures are related to the private property mines That were used for years there. His point is valid as well. When you could drive to the Dutch Miller Gap Parking lot Williams like got a lot more traffic. Hell, you could be in the center of the ALW area in an hour and a half during those years. Frankly I miss it.
"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."
— Abraham Lincoln
"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."
— Abraham Lincoln
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Malachai Constant
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 16092 | TRs | Pics
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
RH you are right about the dates issue on the Chants. Last time we tried we got a permit in June we and another party bailed because Asgard looked dicey. Next week a man died while his child watched. 
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 7732 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:37 pm |
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| Brian R wrote: | Just when you start to piss me off, you start saying things that make sense!  |
I walk a fine line.
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 7732 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:53 pm |
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| neek wrote: | | I'd maybe support a limited expansion of existing permit systems if you could, say, fast-track the process by obtaining some sort of LNT certification (sort of like a TSA precheck for hiking). |
This is the only way permits will have a strong effect on impact. I mean, you don't have to pass a test about burying your poop and putting a fire out to get a permit, you just have to show up before other people.
But honestly I think for many people, the issue isn't impact, it's lack of solitude, and crowding. The problem that started this thread isn't that people were causing any kind of damage, it's that they were there at all.
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Sky Hiker
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Joined: 03 Feb 2007
Posts: 1469 | TRs | Pics
Location: outside |
ok Brian enough with the pics
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Seattle_Wayne
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Joined: 12 Nov 2019
Posts: 104 | TRs | Pics
Location: Greater Snohomish County |
There are thousands of trails to hike that your casual weekend hiker doesn't know about, won't hike it, vehicle can't make it to the trailhead etc etc.
That's why Mount Si, Philchuck, Rattlesnake Ledge etc are so popular. Easy access, easy hike.
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Sky Hiker
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Joined: 03 Feb 2007
Posts: 1469 | TRs | Pics
Location: outside |
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JonnyQuest
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Joined: 10 Dec 2013
Posts: 593 | TRs | Pics
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| neek wrote: | | In addition to shaming people for being born |
I don't shame them, I shame their parents. 
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nickmtn
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Joined: 04 Jun 2014
Posts: 105 | TRs | Pics
Location: Kirkland, wa |
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nickmtn
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Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:31 pm |
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| Cyclopath wrote: | | But honestly I think for many people, the issue isn't impact, it's lack of solitude, and crowding. The problem that started this thread isn't that people were causing any kind of damage, it's that they were there at all. |
Yuuuuppp. It's pretty selfish to restrict access to the wilderness so that a small elite can enjoy solitude. Doesn't sound too far off from the idea of a "Kings Forest", which our wilderness system was supposed to be a refutation of.
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Bernardo
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Joined: 08 Feb 2010
Posts: 2174 | TRs | Pics
Location: out and about in the world |
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Bernardo
Member
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Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:44 pm |
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Rather than limit access to public lands, we should pass laws to open access without permits to all private land not within 100 feet of a dwelling. Same laws would require responsible use by visitors.
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Malachai Constant
Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 16092 | TRs | Pics
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Bernardo that was the rule for most western states for years if you had a hunting/fishing license.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Michael Lewis
Taking a nap
Joined: 27 Apr 2009
Posts: 629 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lynnwood, WA (for now) |
From now on I'm only posting pictures of refuse I pack out when I hike ALW. That'll help right?
Also, what if you actually had to take a poop/trash/LNT test to get a permit like suggested? You had to learn the rules of the road and test to get a license so I don't see the difference in a special use area. Bandits will camp how they please so it would only limit the honest ones but still, why not?
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