Forum Index > Trail Talk > What Search and Rescue Workers Want You to Carry
Previous :: Next Topic  
Author Message
catsp
Member
Member


Joined: 15 Jun 2017
Posts: 113 | TRs

catsp
  Top

Member
PostSat Dec 21, 2019 7:39 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Gwen wrote:
Have a heart attack in Wilderness, death becomes a very more real possibility.

A great example actually. I'd suggest being prepared for an "overnight" probably isn't going to be much help for a heart attack while on a daytime summer hike of Mount Pilchuk. But a sure-fire communication device might be a great help (which leaves out cell phones.) Under this standard, no one should even day hike without an inReach or something. While I imagine many would agree, I imagine many others - including a number in the ostensible "preparedness" crowd - don't.

Gwen wrote:
You do you and I'll do me and I'll respect your right to your opinion, but I'll never hike with you (not that you were asking).

TBH, it sure doesn't sound like you respect my opinion. smile.gif  But TBF, I'm not sure you actually know what my opinion is. smile.gif

I'll continue to reiterate that I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being super-prepared, and I'm not saying that people shouldn't bring things that they believe make them more prepared, safer, etc. And I've already agreed that with increased risk (e.g., going farther afield, going solo or where there's fewer other people, backpacking as opposed to day hiking, etc.) should come increased preparedness.

I'm simply saying that under the circumstances I've indicated several times (a summertime, daylight day hike on a well-traveled trail), the person carrying little more than a water bottle and a cell phone is probably sufficient prepared for that outing, and that to the extent we might look down our nose at such a person I believe it to be unwarranted.

TBH, I'm not sure why this position seems to anger or threaten experienced hikers. Like on the other thread, where you wrote that it seems I like to stir the pot and spark conflict. Frankly, I think I've laid out my thoughts pretty evenhandedly, and have gone to great lengths to state that I'm not in any way against those who prefer to bring such gear. As I mentioned earlier, sometimes it seems that the reaction to the supposed "unprepared" hiker simply reflects our irritation with such hikers not following the "preparedness" rules as we believe them to be, but routinely completing their day hikes anyway.

As for the implication that you would never even day hike with anyone who wasn't prepared for an overnighter on even the most well-traveled trails, that is of course entirely for you to determine.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Gwen
LO Girl-of-the-Month



Joined: 14 Feb 2010
Posts: 1512 | TRs

Gwen
  Top

LO Girl-of-the-Month
PostSat Dec 21, 2019 7:58 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
catsp wrote:
Gwen wrote:
You do you and I'll do me and I'll respect your right to your opinion, but I'll never hike with you (not that you were asking).

TBH, it sure doesn't sound like you respect my opinion. smile.gif† But TBF, I'm not sure you actually know what my opinion is. smile.gif

Never said I respected your opinion; said I respected your right to your opinion. smile.gif

--------------
Tomorrow's not promised to anyone, so be bold, scare yourself, attempt something with no guarantee of success. You'll be amazed at what you can achieve. -Olive McGloin
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Brushwork
Food truck



Joined: 18 Aug 2018
Posts: 408 | TRs
Location: Washington
Brushwork
  Top

Food truck
PostSat Dec 21, 2019 10:10 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
I know of 2 people who had to wait at least 2hrs till help arrived on the trail.  They were both within a mile and half from the trail head and had cell reception and were on popular trails. One had a broken leg.  The other was lost.   Both had enough gear to stay warm, which was a few layers.  Both times It was winter and cold.   Though neither got hypothermic, they were still cold and were glad to have the layers they did.   Were it not for cell reception,  it would have been a much longer wait.   

I personally think itís irresponsible not to carry enough to keep oneself warm, unless itís a really short trip.   More than once, Iíve experienced a degree of hypothermia, and it was no joke. itís way easier to be prepared ahead of time.   

Since part of the reason I go out, itís for exercise, so itís a no brainer to carry a pack with gear.  So what if go a little slower.   It keeps in shape for backpacking and I doubt Iíll have to worry about bone loss.   Way more fun to carry a pack hiking than work out in the gym!

--------------
When I grow up I wanna play.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Cyclopath
Faster than light



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 3511 | TRs
Location: Seattle
Cyclopath
  Top

Faster than light
PostSat Dec 21, 2019 11:49 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Schroder wrote:
catsp wrote:
If someone is day hiking Mount Pilchuk or Lake Serene in the summer, do they really "need" more than a water bottle and a phone?

I've personally seen minor injuries in both those places become life-threatening situations because the hikers weren't prepared

Especially if you're also talking about summer time, I'd love to hear more about those incidents if you're able to share.  Many in this forum consider a stroll up Pilchuck on a warm dry summer day a walk in the park.  Maybe people are getting complacent.  What risks do people need to be more aware of in these easy, crowded places?
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
WaState
Member
Member


Joined: 27 Sep 2013
Posts: 105 | TRs

WaState
  Top

Member
PostSun Dec 22, 2019 5:59 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Where the easy mountain  hikes really get more dangerous is the fall season moving from summer to
winter weather. During fall and spring seasons can have one day like summer in weather,  the next day like winter.

Even the smallest mountain can be dangerous in a winter storm, or even in mildly bad weather for those unprepared to sit still because of a broken leg.

There is an army of summer day hikers that carry little more than a cell phone .for survival gear. As the weather
turns worse there are are fewer hikers, but still, many who are out continue on with little survival knowledge  or preparation.

In the summer that person who goes off the main trail onto a game trail and keeps on going until totally lost, the  odds of consequences are less, especially if they are in cell phone coverage.  Same with a twisted ankle , broken leg or busted hip.  But move into winter like conditions and out of cell phone coverage, a Darwin like weeding out really starts to kick in place for the I'll prepared and the strain on SAR volunteers goes up as well.

The basic cut off point is footwear, those who invest in winter capable boots are likely prepared , those in lesssor footwear are more likely to stay home as it gets colder. Those who go out anyway in winter conditions with less than good boots are likely less prepared. There are intermediary weather conditions from good to bad, some snow etc. On a day hike then weather turns very bad that night or next day,  margins for survival shrink toward zero for the unprepared if something happens.

It is more than money and gear, a smart cell  phone can cost a lot, a person can be decently outfitted with overnight emergency  gear for that cost. Yesterday I bought a blizzard survival blanket from Ebay for 10$ including shipping. A mini bic lighter and tinder costs next to nothing. Most everyone has extra clothing,  a poncho can be inexpensive.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Cyclopath
Faster than light



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 3511 | TRs
Location: Seattle
Cyclopath
  Top

Faster than light
PostSun Dec 22, 2019 8:10 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
I got the campfire app for $3.  It keeps you warm at night and you can use it to make s'mores.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
kevperro
Member
Member


Joined: 28 Jan 2017
Posts: 35 | TRs
Location: Monroe, WA
kevperro
  Top

Member
PostMon Dec 23, 2019 10:30 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
I carry enough on day hikes to spend the night if needed.    Not that I'd be comfortable but I'd live.

In all the cases where my emergency supplies come in handy is because of other people who have no business being where they are when they are.    That is 'ok'....  I get to help someone in need and hopefully, they learn a lesson.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Brushwork
Food truck



Joined: 18 Aug 2018
Posts: 408 | TRs
Location: Washington
Brushwork
  Top

Food truck
PostMon Dec 23, 2019 11:21 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Cyclopath wrote:
I got the campfire app for $3.  It keeps you warm at night and you can use it to make s'mores.

Maybe I need to get that campfire app.... I am waiting for the Sherpa app - to help with my overnight gear.   There needs to be a sunshine app,   And a few others...

--------------
When I grow up I wanna play.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
BigBrunyon
Member
Member


Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 659 | TRs
Location: the fitness gyms!!
BigBrunyon
  Top

Member
PostMon Dec 23, 2019 11:36 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
The most annoying thing about the campfire app is when you try to change the background audio settings and the big bright google add starts screaming in your face. Very disruptive!! I always tell myself I should just keep it on the "crickets" setting but then I always end up getting sick of it and tryin' to change the audio again!

--------------
I ALWAYS camp at the upper lake!
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
WaState
Member
Member


Joined: 27 Sep 2013
Posts: 105 | TRs

WaState
  Top

Member
PostTue Dec 31, 2019 8:47 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
https://www.heraldnet.com/news/hikers-urged-to-not-be-deceived-by-conditions-at-mount-pilchuck/
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
WaState
Member
Member


Joined: 27 Sep 2013
Posts: 105 | TRs

WaState
  Top

Member
PostTue Dec 31, 2019 12:55 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
So ,  I wonder if there is a tipping point , where as it is simply more trouble than it is worth to have the trails open?  I can certainlly see that happening as the weather turns to the bad.

Something like , to protect the public all of these certain trails are closed until late spring when given notice...

There are plenty of examples of similar events happening due to overuse and too much "stupidity" in use by the general public.

Lawsuits and money risk plays a big part in these things. One can imagine all sorts of ways lawsuits can cause trouble.  For any government enity all risk ends with a trail closure.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Kim Brown
Member
Member


Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts: 5544 | TRs

Kim Brown
  Top

Member
PostTue Dec 31, 2019 3:35 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
A trail closure does no good in snow or for off-trail travel; but aside from that, I think a weather closure would open up a can of worms; for instance, if they close the Pilchuck trail, what would they close exactly; just the trail? What about off-trail travel? Should they close every square inch of the mountain above 1,900 feet? Whose going to build that fence? What if the fence is down, or the sign ripped away or youíre traveling cross-country and there is no sign - so someone relying on signs and fences instead of their own education might assume itís safe, because Ė thereís no sign, no fence. Dumbing down even more would cause even more accidents, I think.

This sounds over the top, but after one of the Big4 disasters, someone on WTAís Facebook page actually gave other posters advice that the Forest Service closes the ice caves if there is going to be an avalanche. *

The travel at your own risk is the safest way to deal with public lands. Youíre responsible for educating yourself and dealing with dangers inherent in the backcountry (that phrase is express on some trail head signs).

* Even with all the signs at Big 4 Ė the caves are not closed to the public. They can enter them.

--------------
" I'm really happy about this! Ö I have very strong good and horrible memories up there."  Ė oldgranola, NWHís outdoors advocate.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
RandyHiker
Snarky Member



Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 6838 | TRs
Location: Bellevue at the moment.
RandyHiker
  Top

Snarky Member
PostTue Dec 31, 2019 4:24 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
No matter what measures the land managers make and no matter how reckless the undertaking that someone takes resulting in their death -- their estate can still sue and the land agency will have considerable legal fees dealing with such lawsuits.

E.g. The Grace Tam case was dismissed

https://www.heraldnet.com/news/lawsuit-dismissed-in-girls-death-at-big-four-ice-caves/

But I'm certain that the legal costs on the USFS side were many times more that the cost of erecting numerous warning signs year after year.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
texasbb
Misplaced Texan



Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 951 | TRs
Location: Tri-Cities, WA
texasbb
  Top

Misplaced Texan
PostTue Dec 31, 2019 4:37 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Kim Brown wrote:
Dumbing down even more would cause even more accidents, I think.

Amen.

Kim Brown wrote:
The travel at your own risk is the safest way to deal with public lands.

Preach on!
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Pahoehoe
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 515 | TRs

Pahoehoe
  Top

Member
PostWed Jan 01, 2020 1:10 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
On a summertime day hike with a high confidence good weather report...

A rain/wind shell, a puffy, a emergency blanket/bivy plus water and a few bars is probably sufficient.

Not a cushy night out, but you would survive.  All that could be stuffed in pockets except maybe water.

People like huge first aid kits but what will you actually be able to do in the wilderness?  Stop bleeding?  Make a splint?  Anything else is "comfort".

So some vet wrap, maxi pads, a bit of seran wrap, bandaids,  some drugs (aspirin, ibuprofen, etc), and your blister kit.  Maybe some tweezers.

Think of what you have to make due.  Probably can find sticks and also have hiking poles.  No need to carry a "splint".  Probably have some clothes or something to add for stopping bleeding...

First aid is mostly a survive until help arrives and/or deal with minor issues.

I laughed at an outdoor activity group that wanted leaders to carry a syringe to flush wounds in a first aid kit for day trips not expected to last more than a few hours.

Stop bleeding/stabilize and get out or wait for help to evacuate.  No need to perform minor surgery.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
  Display:     All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Forum Index > Trail Talk > What Search and Rescue Workers Want You to Carry
  Happy Birthday K-rino!
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
   Use Disclaimer Powered by phpBB Privacy Policy