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Tom
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PostWed Dec 18, 2019 5:30 pm 
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There is already a thread to debate e-bikes if you feel there are points that haven't been debated to death already. No point hijacking and polluting this and other threads. It adds no value.
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Pahoehoe
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PostWed Dec 18, 2019 9:44 pm 
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I'm not talking about ebikes although I wonder if you could put tracks on one...

Im talking about snow travel.
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Brushwork
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PostWed Dec 18, 2019 10:15 pm 
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There is physical pollution and there is verbal pollution.....they’re both pollution.

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Cyclopath
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PostWed Dec 18, 2019 10:21 pm 
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Skiers pay for grooming. Nordic skis are like road bikes with 23 mm tires that can really only ride the way they were intended on paved roads.  We need the snow to be a certain density and the surface just right.  You can't just show up at a ski trail with skis and be ok like Ruth NTB, you have to buy in to help pay for grooming.

I've seen fat bikes being ridden on Rendezvous trails, with no trail damage.  I have no problem with it, I don't want to be skiing down a hill and find a line of bikes across the trail though.  Fat cyclists should know that skis can be harder to control than bikes, and the trails see people with a range of skill levels.

In any case, it's understandable that skiers will feel entitled to not have groomed trails torn up when they pay for grooming.

I don't understand why anyone would want to snowshoe on a groomed trail, it's like the mountains equivalent of a sidewalk if you can literally go anywhere.  To be fair, though, I don't understand why anyone would want to snowshoe period, when skis exist.
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Pahoehoe
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PostThu Dec 19, 2019 1:54 pm 
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Doesnt the sno park pass pay for grooming in most places?  So everyone is paying?

Dont you share the trail like pictured above?  Seems like space can be made for all.
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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Dec 19, 2019 2:11 pm 
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SnoPark Pass does not pay for grooming. Extra stamp for cost equal to Snopark pass is  supposed to pay for grooming at a few areas mostly near Snoqualmie Pass but the grooming is irregular and often deficient. Private areas usually have good grooming and their own trail pass.

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Randito
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PostThu Dec 19, 2019 2:22 pm 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
Doesnt the sno park pass pay for grooming in most places?  So everyone is paying?

So you don't actually know anything about the sno-park program do you?

There are three types of sno-park permits in Washington.  Non-Motorized permits ($40).  Non-Motorized groomed trail permits ($80) and Snowmobile permits ($50).  The Snowmobile permit paid with the snowmobile licensing fee.  (Snowmobiles have license plates and tabs, like cars and motorcycles)

The state grooms many hundreds of miles of Snowmobile trails, maybe  150 miles of groomed cross country trails and 10 miles of dog sled trails.
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BigBrunyon
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PostThu Dec 19, 2019 2:41 pm 
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Its always pay to play in the winter months. The invisible hand of the market drives these sno prices. You know someone's rakin' it in!

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Pahoehoe
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PostThu Dec 19, 2019 9:26 pm 
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How come snomos pay less and get more trails?
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mb
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PostThu Dec 19, 2019 10:25 pm 
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Because you're paying for services?

Basic price: Plow parking lot. Costs $.
A touch more: Snowmobile something something
A bunch more: Groom trails. Costs $$.


Fatbiking on packed snow is easier than fresh. Works well on a snowmobile track the 1-2 times I've done it.

<anythingsnowmobile> vs <anythingnotsnowmobile>? Very different. No matter if it's a 2-stroke or 4-stroke (big issue!) or electric or nuclear powered. More like ATV vs bike... for whatever your definition of bike is.

I've thought for a long time that e-skis might be an idea. Like attach a belt sander to the front of your skis and tow yourself up a hill. Though I expect most battery systems would get you 1/4 mile if you're lucky.
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rossb
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PostThu Dec 19, 2019 10:37 pm 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
How come snomos pay less and get more trails?

I think the idea is that they are already paying the state to register the snowmobile. I think part of the gas tax also goes into the recreational fund, under the assumption that if you are using the snowmobile, you are using gas.
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Cyclopath
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PostThu Dec 19, 2019 10:43 pm 
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Snowmobiles take up a lot more parking too.
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rossb
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PostThu Dec 19, 2019 11:08 pm 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
So e-snowmobiles should be allowed in all non wilderness areas. ...
Impact is non existant.  Gone with the next snow storm.

The impact is temporary, but it is still an impact. At the risk of repeating many of the same points I made earlier, here is why your idea is bad:

1) A snowmobile can do great damage to a groomed area. Unlike, say, a snowshoer, there is no way to "stay on the edge". The snowmobile is too wide, and the grooves are too deep. I can tell you, without a doubt, that signs that ban snowmobiles from groomed areas have nothing to do with the noise or the exhaust -- it has to do with the damage to the groomed areas.

2) On an open hillside, a snowmobile can do the work of 50 people, essentially eliminating "first tracks" for a busload of skiers. It is an essentially selfish act, like eating all the donuts at the company meeting.

3) It is often very difficult to enforce Wilderness rules. For that reason, some trailheads ban bikes, even though the Wilderness boundary is quite a ways away, and the trail is wide and strong. It is just easier to enforce things at the trailhead. The same is true for snowmobiles. It is much easier to just look for a trailer at the trailhead, rather than see if the snowmobile has wandered into a Wilderness area.

4) Some trails are very narrow, and snowmobiles are, by their very nature, wide.

5) As I wrote, a collision with a snowmobile is many times more dangerous than a collision with a skier, even if everyone is going the same speed.

Don't poach, and pretend that no one minds. They do. They will think you are an ass####. They will complain. They will make it more difficult for everyone.

I would suggest a different approach. A few years back, some wanted to close the roads in Yellowstone to snowmobiles. They wanted to restrict the area to snow-coaches, skiers, and snowshoers. Others sought a compromise. Allow snowmobiles, but only four stroke. The whole thing collapsed, and they pretty much allowed all snowmobiles.

I think it is quite reasonable, though, to argue for a similar restriction. Ask that Park Butte, for example, be restricted to electric snowmobiles. Same with the Mountain Loop. I hope you are successful, as that would make a lot of people happy.
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Randito
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PostFri Dec 20, 2019 11:56 am 
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Cyclopath wrote:
Snowmobiles take up a lot more parking too.

I like the idea of requiring a sno-park for every 20 feet of vehicle length.

So a Subaru of skiers needs one, but a pickup with a trailer 2 or 3 --

But on the other hand -- each snowmobile pays $50 as part of licensing fees.   So pickup with a 2 sled trailer has paid $100 in annual sno-park fees.   

But if one dives very deeply into the funding vs costs vs usage -- it's the sledders using the five sno-play sno-parks that pay the most for a service that costs the least to provide.

Also in terms of total revenue -- the state registers ~35,000 snowmobiles with $50 each going to the sno-park program and sells ~4000 non-motorized sno-park permits for $40 or $80 each -- so based on a $ per mile of groomed trail -- it's not unreasonable that there are many times more miles of groomed snowmobile trails than groomed ski trails.

This draft plan from 2017, mentions Fat Tire bikes and the need to develop trails for that activity.

https://parks.state.wa.us/DocumentCenter/View/9663/Winter-Recreation-Strategic-Plan---Final-Draft-8-30-17
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treeswarper
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PostMon Dec 23, 2019 8:35 am 
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The South Summit area of The Loup has groomed trails.  You need a snow park permit and so far it has been the $40 one or a day pass.  Part of the trail is shared with snowmobiles.  Part of the groomed area is open to dogs--unleashed if you want.   If you don't like dogs, ski the other part and don't whine.   

We can get along.  I've not seen fat tire bikes up there in the winter, yet.  We ride our bikes that must not be named on the trails, which are actually roads, during the summer--more getting along with cows, horse people or any other user that we rarely see.

It works.

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