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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12798 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
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Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:00 pm
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Bernardo wrote: | Should that be changed?
Were those debating in the GW thread not complying with this rule or were they complying but the rule has changed? |
Bernardo, I realize you addressed the question to Tom, but I'm going to take a stab at trying to address it myself:
"Stewardship" issues, because of their nature, are generally all about politics - there's just no way to really address some stewardship issues comprehensively without delving into the politics involved.
Certainly with some issues that's not the case - some matters are more cut and dried and the crux of the issue doesn't concern which political party is in control of the US Congress or the Legislature in Olympia or a County Board of Commissioners.
Either way, an issue concerning stewardship can be discussed in a civil fashion between adults without the necessity of the "left vs. right" sniping.
Unfortunately as time went on, it became apparent that was not what was happening in the GW thread. The addition of another (somewhat) related thread which was clearly intended to incite divisiveness was completely unnecessary and inappropriate, and was not related to hiking or stewardship.
It is, therefore, completely understandable, and (in this instance) most certainly appropriate that the thread(s) be locked.
Hopefully this action will help to get things back on track and we can get back to talking about mundane issues like routes and trails and trees and lakes and rivers and showing off our pretty pictures, which is ostensibly what the site's about.
I would submit that it's possible that months of dreary weather and short days makes people a bit cranky and they tend to lose focus about priorities.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Tom Admin
Joined: 15 Dec 2001 Posts: 17835 | TRs | Pics
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Tom
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Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:07 pm
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What outdoor related discussion was being discussed in the global warming thread? Beyond glaciers melting and potential links to fires and extreme weather events which were minimally debated the bulk of the discussion had little to do with hiking or the outdoors.
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Malachai Constant Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 16088 | TRs | Pics Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
To put it simply this forum is not intended to be a debating society. 700 pages with 90% by the same five people is not useful to the community. Of late it had gotten well beyond ordinary trolling and into verbal combat. My daughter is a scientist and I see an attack on scientists as an attack on my family. All that thread did was encourage bad feelings against other hikers the absurd part was most of the attacks were made by people who certainly outside the community. When someone post that the disappearance of a Glacier could be caused by GW and then is attacked as a “socialist”, tool of George Sorros, or totalitarian taking our freedom it is not hiking related and just divisive. Leave the politics to Breitbart, Facebook, or WP comments it has no place here. If you do not want to talk about hiking please do not post here.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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MtnGoat Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:05 pm
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When someone claims arguments about science as an attack on family, that is yet another sign what that the observer is not discussing science. Science is designed to weed out such issues, but only when you stick to it. I for one have never attacked actual science ...when it is followed. The methods are clear cut and centuries old. Stick to 'em, you're doing science. Evade 'em, you're not, no matter what the excuses.
Complaints about personal attacks and lack of value by some of the worst offenders in the refusal to stick to science, are epic gas lighting attempts.
In my opinion the lack of traction on imposing the things desired by AGW believers has been resulting in increased frustration in the thread. "Division" and "divisive" is a choice chosen by those feeling divided, one is not forced to be 'divided' by anything but one's own chosen beliefs and how one handles them.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Malachai Constant Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 16088 | TRs | Pics Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Back to ignore you cannot not turn this into GW par deux, congrats you got a few hours.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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MtnGoat Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:12 pm
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An example of the kind of mindset one has to contend with.... while being labeled 'divisive'. User has to use ignore, rather than control their own emotions on a matter they choose to be excited over.
This is a perfectly legitimate observation of fact.
And it's perfectly legitimate to critique your argument.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Sculpin Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2015 Posts: 1376 | TRs | Pics
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Sculpin
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Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:47 pm
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I am in full support of this. There are other places on the net to argue.
Unfortunately, the epistemology of topical community social media suggests that "stewardship" as a forum topic, ironic as it may seem, is fraught here.
I think the rationale for having a stewardship forum is so folks can post news and discuss topics about public land issues that relate directly to hiking experiences. Radka did have a point that there should be a way to express opinions about topics that some might find controversial, as long as they are directly related to hiking. Tom has done an excellent job of navigating this, in my opinion.
Perhaps changing the forum name to "Public Land Stewardship" would nudge things in the right direction?
Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
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Bernardo Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2010 Posts: 2174 | TRs | Pics Location: out and about in the world |
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Bernardo
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Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:01 pm
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As I implied above, I do believe we can avoid the GW topic, and not be worse off. I think there is a case to be made to let folks "debate," but I'm not going to seriously argue the point.
In passing, I will say it is interesting to hear the views of the demographic that generally inhabits this place and to hear different points of view, especially those challenging the consensus. There seems to be generally at least a basic common denominator here which creates a base for a modicum of respect. For some people, it is enough to say, I am talking to a person, therefore I respect them, but it also helps to be able to think, they like to hike, they can't be all bad, maybe they have something worthwhile to say. And we generally do mostly debate things with a hiking connection, which I would gently argue includes environmental issues such as fisheries and even GW. But, yes we can live without it. There really is very little discussion here about controversial issues without a hiking connection.
If, however, some specific policy is proposed based on forecasts of distant temperatures that would effect hiking, I see two legitimate topics for discussion here: is the forcast accurate and if the forecast is accurate does the policy make sense.
That's different from a general debate on GW.
If someone is looking for a place to debate, Twitter might be attractive. There you are truly in the public sphere and you can build a following and find unlimited fodder to discuss. The downside is you might not be talking to a hiker and there the gloves really come of fast.
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Tom Admin
Joined: 15 Dec 2001 Posts: 17835 | TRs | Pics
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Tom
Admin
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Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:18 pm
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Sculpin wrote: | Perhaps changing the forum name to "Public Land Stewardship" would nudge things in the right direction? |
Good suggestion.
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Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12798 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:26 pm
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perhaps... except in those instances where the subject concerns a privately-owned parcel that is being considered in a land acquisition deal... it might become public land at some point but presently is privately owned.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Malachai Constant Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 16088 | TRs | Pics Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
I have no problem with arguing whether a piece of land be acquired or a road closed. It is just not relevant to hiking if a wind farm is economic or solar requires child labor. There is also no point in eco guilting individuals for their vacation choices or attacking scientists. Now go out and do some hikes and post some pictures.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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CC cascade curmudgeon
Joined: 13 Sep 2006 Posts: 647 | TRs | Pics
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CC
cascade curmudgeon
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Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:03 pm
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I have a suggestion. Since there are a number of people on the site who seem to live to argue, they will probably pay to argue. So if a thread gets too contentious, change it to a "pay to argue" format, and use the revenue to support site.
First your legs go, then you lose your reflexes, then you lose your friends. Willy Pep
First your legs go, then you lose your reflexes, then you lose your friends. Willy Pep
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RayD the griz ate my pass
Joined: 20 Aug 2005 Posts: 1763 | TRs | Pics Location: Vacaville |
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RayD
the griz ate my pass
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Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:10 pm
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don't believe everything you think
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cdestroyer Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2015 Posts: 1249 | TRs | Pics Location: montana |
I don't hike any more and any photos I did have of hikes were lost in a fire. I voted on the calender photos even though I will not be buying one. I like the pictures. I do not believe I have ever read any of the posts on global warming, I just am not that interested. I cant make it change so not my problem. As to the admin taking action it is their site and like all other sites I have been on the admin has that right. Yall argue to much in here, and I think it is mostly from each of your individuals upbringing. As to the personal attacks, I think we can do without them, especially when you actually place a name in a post.
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MtnGoat Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:31 am
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Malachai Constant wrote: | I have no problem with arguing whether a piece of land be acquired or a road closed. It is just not relevant to hiking if a wind farm is economic or solar requires child labor. There is also no point in eco guilting individuals for their vacation choices or attacking scientists. Now go out and do some hikes and post some pictures. |
When did scientists become above criticism?
There is a very solid point in eco guilting folks who argue other people else needs to have their rights or resources harmed, or else, in order to save the earth from CO2. *Actions* show true beliefs, not words.
Further, I will point that that claiming emotional harm because criticisms of some lousy science means family members are being attacked, does not point to objective evaluation of arguments concerning science.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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