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Bernardo
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PostMon Jan 06, 2020 8:35 pm 
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Wilderness has elite aspects because the vast majority of people in our society will never use them and might even be convinced under the right conditions to do away with them.  But it's more true that wilderness users are a very egalitarian elite, because most people can choose to become a member of this elite.  In America, the land of opportunity, most willing to work hard can afford to get into the wilderness.  Many Americans own large tracts of land and can enjoy the outdoors on their own property, but not the vast majority.  If you took away the wildernesses and parks, etc., there wouldn't be much outdoors available for an elite guy like me and then outdoor recreation truly would be for the elite.  Public land, despite the demographics of it's users, truly is the refuge of the common man and woman.
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Brian R
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PostMon Jan 06, 2020 9:17 pm 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
Elite is a term used by good ole boys who like to run ATVís, log, mine, and pollute to describe tree huggers and environmentalists who think there should be some restrictions.

Not at all. Elitism, in this instance, is a term used to describe what is--not what ought to be. Look around next time you're visiting designated wilderness. Do you see a whole lot of fellow travelers who don't look (and think) like you do? College educated. Globe-trotting. Well-off. Urban (or suburban). White.

Our demographics are changing, and we need to foster a more diverse generation of wilderness users who, in turn, will sustain wilderness. Locking people out by closing roads will only maintain the status quo and result in an undesirable outcome. Aldo Leopold once described wilderness as a place where a common person could recreate cheaply--and for a while he was right. Not so anymore.

Bernardo wrote:
If you control for education, age, immigration status, wealth, social staus, family status, health, etc., I doubt race has anything to do with it.

It shouldn't--but it does. In any event, the variables you describe are baked into the current equation. You can't just remove them from one side.
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PostMon Jan 06, 2020 9:36 pm 
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Bernardo wrote:
Public land, despite the demographics of it's users, truly is the refuge of the common man and woman.

Yes - twas a time when "parks" were private lands only accessible to some of the very rich (e.g. see English deer parks). In the US we have a range of facilities ranging from Wilderness (i.e. with a capital W, as in designated under the  Wilderness Act) to sights you can enjoy w/o leaving  your vehicle, and everything inbetween. The deer parks were truly elitist (as in "relating to or supporting the view that a society or system should be led by an elite" as they were "emparked" by elites and controlled and only accessed by elites - as in "a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society" - in that case very very wealthy noblemen). I'd need some dots connected to buy that  our Wilderness areas fit the definition...
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Brian R
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PostMon Jan 06, 2020 9:58 pm 
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joker wrote:
. . . ranging from Wilderness (i.e. with a capital W, as in designated under the  Wilderness Act)

This is not correct. The word wilderness is only capitalized as a proper noun, e.g. Wilderness Act of 1964, Bridger Wilderness, etc., or at the beginning of a sentence. David Brower, Howard Zahniser, and our local Harvey Manning tried to sell it otherwise--as a stand-in for the capital "G" in God, no doubt--but the word, wilderness, designated or otherwise, is never capitalized stand-alone as a common noun. Many now claim common usage, but it remains technically wrong.

(Now, how's that for elitism?  wink.gif  )
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Randito
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PostMon Jan 06, 2020 10:25 pm 
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Elitism is a code word used by con men from Queens to trick folks that have never made six figures into supporting tax cuts for people making seven figures or more.
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Brian R
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PostMon Jan 06, 2020 10:35 pm 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism
Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an eliteóa select group of people with an intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experienceóare more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.

Does this shoe fit anyone here?  Hello??
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Anne Elk
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PostMon Jan 06, 2020 10:47 pm 
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Hey, not me!  wink.gif  But for sure it defines probably 90% of politicians.  And I like what Randy said just now.

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PostMon Jan 06, 2020 11:02 pm 
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Let's keep the politics out of this thread please.
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 12:04 am 
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Tom wrote:
Let's keep the politics out of this thread please.

Maybe you should have posted that on page 2 when the anti-government ranting began.
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Anne Elk
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 8:58 am 
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embarassedlaugh.gif Oops....sorry Tom, I didn't even realized I slipped!

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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 9:33 am 
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fourteen410 wrote:
Pahoehoe wrote:
Closing roads makes access more difficult.† It takes more time.† It takes more gear.† It takes more fitness.† It takes more skill and knowledge...

All of those things are more easily acquired by middle class and above white men.

Men have more time, fitness, skill & knowledge to travel on closed roads than women? Huh?

Come on. Of course women can and do obtain those things today.

That doesnt mean their arent barriers, still and it certainly doesnt mean their werent huge barriers when National Parks and forests were first being thought up and created.
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 10:03 am 
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Bernardo wrote:
If you control for education, age, immigration status, wealth, social staus, family status, health, etc., I doubt race has anything to do with it.

How often do you see people of color in the wilderness?  The only race I see on any regularity besides white people are asians.

When you look at advertisements for outdoor stuff, up until just a few years ago, how often were the people in the pictures anything but white?

What about TV shows and movies?
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 10:05 am 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Elitism is a code word used by con men from Queens to trick folks that have never made six figures into supporting tax cuts for people making seven figures or more.

Yeah, because it's not elitism to demand someone else pay more in support of your own goals.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 10:06 am 
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Pahoehoe wrote:
How often do you see people of color in the wilderness?  The only race I see on any regularity besides white people are asians.

When you look at advertisements for outdoor stuff, up until just a few years ago, how often were the people in the pictures anything but white?

What about TV shows and movies?

up.gif

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 10:22 am 
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Imagine applying this logic to all public facilities which serve any activity which uses any gear which isn't like walking. No county airports, no boat launches, no mtn biking trails, no fishing docks....

Roads are open to everyone when they are open. This serves a larger number of people.

Note the basis of the logic behind closures is specifically *exclusion*. And the best which can be said is the argument presented.... 'closed to all'. And even that isn't true, because it's not closed to the preferences of the elite wanting the road closed.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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