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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 10:44 am 
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Kim Brown wrote:
* wrote:
Locking people out by closing roads will only maintain the status quo and result in an undesirable outcome. Aldo Leopold once described wilderness as a place where a common person could recreate cheaply--and for a while he was right. Not so anymore.

Roads are closed to everyone when they are closed. Anyone of any financial or racial make up can walk a trail. For backpacking or hiking, all anyone *must* have is a way to move forward with their body, and even at that,  if a down-and-out guy of any race, creed or education or lack of education, who lost all at the gambling hall, and has 6 broken limbs can either be carried to the wilderness boundary by angry bookies, or nudge his way to the boundary using his stomach muscles, he can lay there all day and enjoy wilderness if he wants to. A person can be naked, they can wear 30 year old pants, 50 year old shirts, old tennis shoes, 2nd had gear, 3rd hand gear, and live on stale Grocery Outlook cookies and day old bread. The only barrier is a place like The Enchantments, which are a barrier to lots of people, or a National Park that requires an entry fee to their wilderness areas.

If a broke guy doesn't have a car, that's a barrier, but he probably has a lot of issues to deal with; wilderness is just one of many, and that isn't wilderness' fault.

Not for profit organizations are working hard to get underserved communities out-doors. The barrier there has nothing to do with finances or wilderness boundaries. It is feeling unwelcome, or not having mentors, or not being raised in a community where outdoor recreation is done.

It's not the fault of wilderness.

Umm.  No.

First, the more difficult access is.. ie, a day long road walk means a person has to take more time.  That means lower class people making less money/no PTO are at a disadvantage.

Farther to walk means people with disabilities are at a disadvantage and many people with disabilities are also people with lower incomes and many disabilities are the result of or worsened by lack of medical care due to lack of insurance/inability to pay.

Longer distances means a person has to be more fit.   Higher incomes mean time and money for gyms, personal trainers, exercise equipment..  someone driving a truck 12 hours a day to support their family isnt going to have the time.

Kim Brown wrote:
A person can be naked, they can wear 30 year old pants, 50 year old shirts, old tennis shoes, 2nd had gear, 3rd hand gear, and live on stale Grocery Outlook cookies and day old bread.

Compare this statement to the comments in the recent SAR thread.

Some people think its irresponsible to hike without an inreach or the like.  How much do those cost?  SAR says hike in boots, not shoes.  The farther a person has to go, the more gear they should have and the more important having nice, reliable and lightweight gear becomes.
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joker
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 10:57 am 
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Brian R wrote:
joker wrote:
. . . ranging from Wilderness (i.e. with a capital W, as in designated under the  Wilderness Act)

This is not correct. The word wilderness is only capitalized as a proper noun, e.g. Wilderness Act of 1964, Bridger Wilderness, etc., or at the beginning of a sentence. David Brower, Howard Zahniser, and our local Harvey Manning tried to sell it otherwise--as a stand-in for the capital "G" in God, no doubt--but the word, wilderness, designated or otherwise, is never capitalized stand-alone as a common noun. Many now claim common usage, but it remains technically wrong.

Yeah the copyeditors on my encyclopedia team would  never have let that  sentence pass but in the informal language of threads like this I'm still comfortable  with it as a stand in for all designated wilderness areas in a sentence that was describing things ranging from National Parks to National  Forests etc etc. You might have the right mindset to be a copyeditor...

ETA: I've often seen confounding here  of more general notions of "wilderness"  with that  of  Wilderness areas so my informal usage is IMO  useful in the context of a somewhat tight community like this as a way of avoiding said confounding.
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Brian R
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 10:58 am 
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Kim Brown wrote:
* wrote:
Locking people out by closing roads will only maintain the status quo and result in an undesirable outcome. Aldo Leopold once described wilderness as a place where a common person could recreate cheaply--and for a while he was right. Not so anymore.

Roads are closed to everyone when they are closed. Anyone of any financial or racial make up can walk a trail. For backpacking or hiking, all anyone *must* have is a way to move forward with their body, and even at that,  if a down-and-out guy of any race, creed or education or lack of education, who lost all at the gambling hall, and has 6 broken limbs can either be carried to the wilderness boundary by angry bookies, or nudge his way to the boundary using his stomach muscles, he can lay there all day and enjoy wilderness if he wants to. A person can be naked, they can wear 30 year old pants, 50 year old shirts, old tennis shoes, 2nd had gear, 3rd hand gear, and live on stale Grocery Outlook cookies and day old bread. The only barrier is a place like The Enchantments, which are a barrier to lots of people, or a National Park that requires an entry fee to their wilderness areas.

If a broke guy doesn't have a car, that's a barrier, but he probably has a lot of issues to deal with; wilderness is just one of many, and that isn't wilderness' fault.

Not for profit organizations are working hard to get underserved communities out-doors. The barrier there has nothing to do with finances or wilderness boundaries. It is feeling unwelcome, or not having mentors, or not being raised in a community where outdoor recreation is done.

It's not the fault of wilderness.

You miss an important point. As wilderness becomes less and less accessible due to road closures, it becomes more and more difficult to reach for those with limited time off work. "Ordinary people." So, who gets extended vacations and early retirements nowadays? More and more it's public sector employees and upper-echelon private-sector workers.  Not so much everyone else.

Put another way, if I work at a retail or sales job and have only two days off to recreate, well, I used to be able to reach the "good stuff" along the upper reaches of the Dutch Miller trail, or Anderson Pass, or climb Glacier Peak or the Tahoma Glacier route on Rainier. Not any more. Now, these haunts are the exclusive domain of elites. Lots of time off work, time off to get uber fit, money to buy ultra lightweight gear, maybe even an ebike on a $650 Kuat rack on a new Subaru with a bumper sticker admonishing others to 'live simply.' That these folks happen to be overwhelmingly white isn't the "fault of wilderness"--it's the fault of society. But no matter, it leads to perceptions of wilderness that are less than ideal.
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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 11:13 am 
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Brian R wrote:
That these folks happen to be overwhelmingly white isn't the "fault of wilderness"--it's the fault of society. But no matter, it leads to perceptions of wilderness that are less than ideal.

Wilderness, however is "the fault of society".
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 11:20 am 
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Kim Brown wrote:
Wilderness is available to all, regardless of whether or not they have medical insurance. One has nothing to do with the other.

They have everything to do with each other when public money is spent.

People who cannot access public lands are not going to support them.
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BigBrunyon
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 11:34 am 
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Here's the deal: expanding or not expanding wilderness areas in the cascades is going to have ZERO effect on this country's racial, cultural, and socioeconomic problems.

The aforementioned problems exist on a MUCH grander scale. The socioeconomic profiles of the clientele you see hiking in wilderness areas is merely indicative of this larger problem. The problem at large is not solvable by deciding whether or not to repair a washed out access in the cascades.

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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 11:41 am 
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BigBrunyon wrote:
Here's the deal: expanding or not expanding wilderness areas is going to have ZERO effect on this country's racial, cultural,and socioeconomic problems.

Umm.  Its the other way around.

Most people here want compatible things.  We want wild places that appear as untouched by humans as possible but we are willing to forgive the scars that our preferred activities leave.

We want solitude.  We want to be able to park and get out and enjoy our activities when we have time without dealing with excessive crowding, trash, poop, loud music, and scars from users not us.

The social and racial make up of this country is changing.  If "wilderness" doesnt start appealing to more than just middle class and above white people the majority isn't going to support wilderness because middle class and above white people arent gonna be the majority much longer...
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Pahoehoe
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 11:44 am 
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BigBrunyon wrote:
The problem at large is not solvable by deciding whether or not to repair a washed out access in the cascades.

True, but changing the thought processes will make a difference.

I don't think many of the "elite" that enjoy the benefits of limiting access realize the consequences of it, I think they are mostly ignorant of the results.
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 12:01 pm 
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Kim Brown wrote:
None of this is the fault of wilderness, which several major trail heads easily accessed by major roads (PCT N & S at Stevens and Snoqualmie and Highway 20 for starters)

When a road washes out and makes wilderness unavailable to people who can't take multiple days off work, that has nothing to do with wilderness, it has to do with funding and in some cases extreme environmentalists.

I can't get to the best parts of Tronsen Ridge because of the road, not because of wilderness.


I can't get to Ashland Lakes because of the road not because of wilderness.


I can't get to North Lake because of the road, not because of wilderness.

You are completely missing the point.
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 12:17 pm 
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Kim Brown wrote:
None of this is the fault of wilderness, which several major trail heads easily accessed by major roads (PCT N & S at Stevens and Snoqualmie and Highway 20 for starters)

When a road washes out and makes wilderness unavailable to people who can't take multiple days off work, that has nothing to do with wilderness, it has to do with funding and in some cases extreme environmentalists.

I can't get to the best parts of Tronsen Ridge because of the road, not because of wilderness.


I can't get to Ashland Lakes because of the road not because of wilderness.


I can't get to North Lake because of the road, not because of wilderness.

My folks cannot get to the upper Md Fk terminus because of the road ....and those who support keeping it closed,  because of wilderness and some of it's supporters who don't want to share access with other users using access methods they don't like.

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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 1:38 pm 
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Tom please lock this waste of bandwidth up.

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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 2:12 pm 
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Delete back to original post.  I'm interested to hear about updates on the road and access up the Middle Fork.
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 2:24 pm 
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Yeah, cuz you're forced to click and read.
rolleyes.gif

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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 2:24 pm 
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Update from King County Road services twitter feed:

Quote:
UPDATE: Middle Fork Rd now closed from Oxbow Loop Trail parking lot (MP 9)⚠️ New closure point is a safe distance from slide activity & provides room for cars to turn around.🚳🚷STAY SAFE! Pls don't go past barricades.🚨ACTIVE slide area!


Idea -- how about starting a NEW thread about whether the Middle Fork road above Dingford Creek should be re-opened.   That's a different discussion than the status of this closure by landslide.    Especially since King County is in charge of the landslide blocked section of road and the USFS is in charge of the road above Dingford creek.   As is the USFS in charge of other roads closed in the Middle Fork area -- The Quartz creek road, The Taylor river road, all of which the USFS has stopped maintaining for automobile access.
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 2:45 pm 
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Kim Brown wrote:
No, it's because of maintenance issues, lack of funding, fish habitat, and they needed to close it in order to retain grizzly habitat under the IGBT agreement and build like mileage new trails in the Snoqualmie Corridor to comply with the no net loss of habitat. The corridor was left out of wilderness to make it a bikeable trail. It had nothing to do with wilderness. Perhaps wilderness advocates hoped to expand wilderness there, but that's not the fault of wilderness.

Wilderness isn't people.

The issue is that the wilderness act and the way wilderness has been promoted and maintained alienates people.

Its outdated.  It's an avenue to protect land for hikers and horsepacker.

People who support almost everything wilderness stands for wont support "Wilderness" because it doesnt allow for their form of recreation even though the impacts are in line with or lower than currently allowed activities.

It all matters.  Public lands need support from everyone.

The LAND is just sitting there.  Wilderness is a social construction.
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