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altasnob
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 9:45 am 
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treeswarper, you are correct that using state timber land to fund education is the law in Washington. But this lawsuit is not about that law. This lawsuit is about what rate that timber should be harvested, and what environmental considerations should play a factor. DNR would contend that they are doing a good job of balancing these interests. Skagit County disagrees and is willing to spend tax dollars to duke it out in court.
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Brian R
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 9:57 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
Nobody wants to pay taxes.  Everybody wants funding  done "somehow".

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treeswarper
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 10:16 am 
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altasnob wrote:
treeswarper, you are correct that using state timber land to fund education is the law in Washington. But this lawsuit is not about that law. This lawsuit is about what rate that timber should be harvested, and what environmental considerations should play a factor. DNR would contend that they are doing a good job of balancing these interests. Skagit County disagrees and is willing to spend tax dollars paying private attorneys to duke it out in court.

I realize that.  I was not sure if another poster, who is concerned about following laws in another thread, was aware of the law in this case.

Environmental considerations should be stated in the WA state forest practices act.  What happened to all the pride about it being the most restrictive in the country?

I can't read the article, but in the past, when an entity has won a lawsuit against the government, it sets off more lawsuits.  I suspect the Oregon win inspired some attorneys to go for it here.  In the Precision Pine case, it looked like the mill involved was going to win a lot of money.  A group of lawyers began putting on seminars on how to make more money on a federal timber sale by suing.  The final decision was in the government's favor but it looked for a while like Precision Pine would prevail.  Had they won, we could have expected more lawsuits and claims.

Precision Pine VS US

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treeswarper
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 12:58 pm 
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Hampton Lumber post:

From Hampton Lumber

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Ski
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 1:34 pm 
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Hampton wrote:
To better understand this problem, Oregon State University is in the middle of an extensive study of the marbled murrelet. Since 2015, researchers have tagged 101 female murrelets at sea. Of those, only 12 have even attempted to fly to shore to nest. The implication is that there could be limiting factors in marbled murrelet population dynamics beyond habitat availability. Researchers will likely examine such factors, including food supply at sea, in the coming months and years. This is important research that should help inform plans for how to best support marbled murrelet populations. We are disappointed that Washington forest managers have decided to move forward with such a massive investment and convert productive forestland into habitat before this research is complete.

What do you need facts and science for if it makes somebody feel good? dizzy.gif

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Gregory
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 2:46 pm 
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Enviros are suing because they want no trees cut.

Maybe fifteen years ago, the family still had property on the Ducabush river. The state put a floating smolt trap just above us. We had a spring get together and I watched the trap go unchecked for three days. Hundreds of chum fry died in the trap. Biologist showed up, discarded the dead fry and then began his "research". I played dumb and struck up a conversation with him. Before it was over he bragged about how his girlfriend was getting paid to pretend to count the new spotted owl or the Marbled murrelet. He explained that it was too foggy to see the birds and they were lucky to hear them so they just made it up.

Ski, you are 100% correct in asking who needs science.
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 3:34 pm 
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There are probably issues with a large percentage of work done in the soft sciences. The kind of thing we see continually ***********************************. Folks who'll accept the arguments seen there probably allow spillover of the same thinking into all the other sciences where reproducibility/verifiability is weak at best and absent at worst.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis

https://phys.org/news/2017-03-science-crisis.html

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01307-2

https://www.pnas.org/content/115/11/2628

Of course these issues are likely the most rampant the more political the topic, since many feel the ends justify the means, but will rarely admit it.

This applies to the arguments made for the forest management issue here. Wether it's murrelets or spotted owls, extensive replication work and methodological checking should be done against the claims.....especially for aquatic issues.

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Ski
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 4:37 pm 
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anyone want to start a betting pool to see how long it takes the same players to get this thread closed too?

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Tom
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 4:38 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
The kind of thing we see continually in one specialty we cannot discuss is only the tip of the iceberg.

Keep getting cute injecting AGW politics and you will be shown the door.
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 6:33 pm 
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I make my arguments clearly and openly, I don't slink around trying to shut down what I don't agree with.

There you go, I edited out what is so contentious.

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treeswarper
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 6:50 pm 
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I haven't heard much about Spotted Owls lately.

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Slugman
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 9:02 pm 
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Some anonymous person says that 15 years ago another anonymous person told him a story, so therefore all science is false and useless. It’s hard to imagine an actual human being expects anyone to accept  that load of garbage. Permanent ignore for the “person” who “thinks” like that.

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tlake
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PostTue Jan 07, 2020 9:37 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
I haven't heard much about Spotted Owls lately

This is for info only, not meant to highjack the thread.

Here is Oregon's plan. Most likely the same for other western states.

https://www.fws.gov/oregonfwo/articles.cfm?id=149489595
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MtnGoat
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PostWed Jan 08, 2020 10:33 am 
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Slugman wrote:
Some anonymous person says that 15 years ago another anonymous person told him a story, so therefore all science is false and useless. It’s hard to imagine an actual human being expects anyone to accept  that load of garbage. Permanent ignore for the “person” who “thinks” like that.

Kind of like folks making strawman arguments.

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shane w
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PostWed Jan 08, 2020 10:40 pm 
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Amazing. What a sham. I don't understand the resistance against the modern day timber industry and using a renewable resource to support jobs in rural communities. The trees grow back, ...and people use lumber.
12/101...
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