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MtnGoat
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PostThu Jan 16, 2020 4:19 pm 
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value in non hiking discussions in the Saloon.

I was under the impression this was the place for non hiking topics which are not banned.

I fail to see the value in excluding discussion on the basis of undefined 'value' when people are not forced to read or post.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Chief Joseph
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PostThu Jan 16, 2020 4:31 pm 
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I agree, it is as you have stated before, each member has the option of not reading or responding to a contentious topic or to respond to other members of whom you have conflicts/disagreements.

There is even an amazing thing known as the "Ignore Feature" which I personally refuse to use, others feel differently, that is their prerogative.

But it's not only that, people like to debate-argue-analyze subjects for many reasons (boredom, mental exercise?), in my opinion it can be good, it can be bad, some play nice, others do not.

In the case of the topic recently locked, to me it's amazing that people can disagree so strongly with something that seems pretty simple to me. Common sense is not always common.

So then that's when Moderation comes into play, and they decide whether a topic had runs it's course or not, in this case I think it had, in other cases I don't agree with threads that have been locked.

A heated debate isn't always a bad thing, I guess it's just a matter of how hot? Like a boxing referees decisions, they will not always be popular.

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Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Tom
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PostThu Jan 16, 2020 4:38 pm 
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What is the issue?
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Chief Joseph
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PostThu Jan 16, 2020 4:45 pm 
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I think he is saying  (wishing) that topics in the saloon should be fair game for debating-arguing and should not be locked.

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Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Tom
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PostThu Jan 16, 2020 5:05 pm 
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Hmm, reviewing the past 3 months there were 3 threads delving into merits of slavery, taxes, and capitalism that were locked.  Going a little further I see a couple threads relating to mass shootings and gun control that were locked.  Shrug.

Edit:  I didn't see the left lane thread was just locked.  After reviewing the last 3 pages agree it needed some cooling off.
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Bernardo
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PostThu Jan 16, 2020 5:15 pm 
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I also generally support a more liberal policy.

It's interesting to discuss things in the saloon with people who are here because they like to hike or once were hikers.  While we have hiking in common, it turns out we represent a wide variety of views on other topics.  I do believe hiking content should predominate.

At a moment's notice, should a serious hiking topic come up, this site can bring forth some amazing regional expertise. 

That said there is an easy way to get a thread shut down.  Randyhiker makes a mean, and yes irrelevant, personal attack on MtnGoat.  MtnGoat responds with a verbose epistemological discussion about how a distracting rhetorical technique shows a person has bad character, and, there you go, the thread is locked.

So despite what Damian cited as the reason for locking down the thread, the real reason was because it wasn't a "good debate."  It was a childish stupid debate that involved nonsense logic and personal attacks.

Randy, I respectfully suggest you cool it with your personal attacks.

MtnGoat, I humbly suggest you stop talking about debate techniques and rhetoric, and just stick to the facts.

I believe if either party de-escalated, the conversation could continue.

Personal attacks and talking about how to talk makes me agree with shutting down an otherwise entertaining conversation.  In other words,  the mods don't like to see you making fools of yourselves.
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Ski
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PostThu Jan 16, 2020 6:57 pm 
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^ This is why the "ignore" feature is a true blessing on forums like this.

Now... again... I am waiting for the debate on the Girl Scout Cookie Sale. I have not seen one word about it here, and I just don't think it's right that we can't have a good argument about Girl Scout Cookies!

In the mean time, I will go back to researching patent numbers on little gems like this lovely Herrick Aiken multi-tool that made its appearance earlier today.

Aiken patent awl & tool (patent 19901)
Aiken patent awl & tool (patent 19901)

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"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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treeswarper
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PostThu Jan 16, 2020 7:24 pm 
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I should have sued the Girl Scouts.  I reinjured a leg whilst running across a  busy street to buy their stupid fattening cookies.  They had their table set up on the side of the street that has no sidewalk or much room to even walk on!  They were catering to the car culture!

Is it that time of year again?

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What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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flatsqwerl
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PostThu Jan 16, 2020 8:00 pm 
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huh ski...I just bought an awl today. What a coincidence. Lovely tools to own..although the one you show is more multi use than what I purchased.
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Brushwork
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PostThu Jan 16, 2020 9:43 pm 
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Well said Bernardo!

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When I grow up I wanna play.
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Jan 17, 2020 8:51 am 
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I'd be interested to know how discussing facts isn't sticking to them.

Fact: Public postings are public and therefore commentable by anyone with the inclination to do so.

Fact: PM's are private and if your goal is a private response, the way to get one.

Fact: All posters are part of the 'community' and see 'value' of some kind anywhere they choose to post. Otherwise they would not choose to do so.

Fact: Punishing folks not breaking rules by closing down threads due to violations by others harms the 'community' and 'value' of commentary and threads.... by imposing the heckler's veto.

Fact: My goal is clarity and discussion, not evasions, heckler's vetos, nor ignoring sophistry masquerading as valid arguments.

Fact: When a poster posts a comment, they're speaking for themselves, not someone else, unless they specifically claim to be speaking for someone else.

I don't see any reason not to call out what actually doesn't 'add value'. Evasions, sophistry, and well poisoning are some of those things. And the reason the well poisoning and hecklers veto works is because instead of disciplining the ones making personal attacks, others posters are punished by thread locking.

When I feel it's necessary I post long form, and it's necessary often because ideas are complex things and deserve proper treatment. This is a non issue, folks who don't want to read it don't have to.

Issues with detail are the responsibility of the reader, not me. For people who want sound bites and idea kibble, who tune out after 3 sentences, then twitter is the place. I will not restrain myself to serving idea snacks.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Stefan
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PostFri Jan 17, 2020 11:24 am 
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This is not a "public" site in terms like the government says.

We have "gods" aka webmasters who can decide on what is right or not.

Don't like the discretion of the webmasters, then don't visit and don't post.

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Art is an adventure.
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Kim Brown
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PostFri Jan 17, 2020 12:22 pm 
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Given the subsequent threads that have been created to continue the debate and argument about chronic debating and arguing makes me think that the actual desired outcome isn't about voicing opinion re: hiking or land stewardship subject, rather to feed a chronic craving for debate and argument.

The constant grasping for a place to argue is a purple gorilla in the room that infects threads with nitpicking, nonsensical word salad debate.

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" I'm really happy about this! … I have very strong good and horrible memories up there."  – oldgranola, NWH’s outdoors advocate.
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Cyclopath
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PostFri Jan 17, 2020 12:45 pm 
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Let's debate what kind of snow conditions exist on the western closure for Route 20.  Enough snow to ski?  Packed down or fluffy and post holey?  What about avalanche potential tomorrow?
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Ski
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PostFri Jan 17, 2020 2:34 pm 
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I'd prefer a debate about whether Finnish surf rock is better than Mexican surf rock, myself.


I mean.... if we're going to debate something, let's make it a worthwhile subject! up.gif

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"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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