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Malachai Constant
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PostWed Jan 29, 2020 4:51 pm 
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I remember him saying at one point, “I am not a role model”. It really has little to do with anything. He was a great round all player. He was tragically killed with his daughter and other folks working for youth sports. We all have past sins except for one person. Sports figures are idolized by fans same as it ever was. Ruth was a womanizer, Cobb a racist ahole, Rose a gambler, Boggs sex, Mashawn petty crimes, the list is endless. Sports figures are not gods.

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neek
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PostWed Jan 29, 2020 5:42 pm 
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Chief Joseph wrote:
Not sure that I am "judging" anyone, mostly trying to understand the reason why people need to bring it up, and I have received some decent answers and it has made for a good discussion. I fancy myself somewhat of an amateur psychologist so I am interested in what makes people's minds work.

For me as well this is just good discussion vs. arguing.  I would call the low class claim a form of judgment, but it's a minor point.  You're asking reasonable questions.  No one here wants a repeat of the Beckey thing and it seems that we're doing fairly well so far.

Chief Joseph wrote:
I also find it interesting that the the Media (as hated by some and as drama driven as they are) have not ONCE (since his death) mentioned Kobe's past transgressions, at least the Spokane local stations and ABC world news that I watch, yet internet social media individuals choose to bring it.

New York Times?  Washington Post?  Or maybe their articles were just a reaction to the Sonmez thing, I can't keep it all straight.
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fourteen410
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PostWed Jan 29, 2020 5:53 pm 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
Sports figures are not gods.

That's precisely my point. People are praising him as one now that he has died. Bringing up his past isn't a smear campaign, it's a reaction to those who are canonizing him (I'm speaking more to the general public than those in this thread).

It's disturbing that people think we should just move on, not judge, and/or not talk about this part of Kobe's past because it's not classy. Sexual assault isn't classy. Don't minimize it.
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MtnGoat
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PostWed Jan 29, 2020 5:58 pm 
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Haven't seen anyone here minimizing it.

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RandyHiker
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PostWed Jan 29, 2020 7:13 pm 
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FWIW: The PBS News Hour included coverage of the rape case in their coverage of Kobe's death and his positive accomplishments.   The news hour is an oasis of journalism.
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Bernardo
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PostWed Jan 29, 2020 7:17 pm 
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I think there is merit in being accurate. 

We kind of live in a one strike you are out culture.  I always find it interesting that someone makes a mistake, and it always seems a social media lynch mob wants his or her head.  People are always gleeful when some gets fired for some often minor non-criminal offense.  The financial and life consequences often seem out of proportion to the offense.  Same cultural trait seems to manifest itself when we lock people up for long terms for non-violent felonies. 

With regard to Bryant, I think people are judging him for how he lived after the incident.  He restored his relationship with his wife and appears to have been a very dedicated and loving father.   Whether you can forgive the earlier incident, that's your choice and I can see that going either way.  I lean toward forgiveness, but I might prefer to say he became a terrific person as grew in maturity.  He was fortunate to get a second chance at life because of his privilege.  Forgiveness is a great form of love and often truly classy.  It a high state of being human to forgive.

With regard to the crash, I'm guessing a cause will be identified.
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Chief Joseph
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PostThu Jan 30, 2020 12:38 am 
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What good does it do to bring up his transgressions?

What good does it do to bring up his attributes?

Define "good".

In the end it doesn't really matter, it's a wash, we are all the same.

It's really a question of each persons beliefs and opinions, but I appreciate that we can have a civil discussion, and to attempt to understand the other persons POV without a lot of dissent.

maybe we should have a "poll"?  clown.gif

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NikonHiker
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PostThu Jan 30, 2020 5:30 am 
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Backpacker Joe wrote:
The entire situation seems strange to me.  Its been reported that the Sikorsky S-76 (very expensive/advanced helicopter) was descending (read losing altitude) at OVER 2000' feet per minute.  In helicopter terms that's almost like an auto rotation to the ground.  That's what you must do when you lose power in a helicopter if your'e going to have any chance at survival.  If that's the case you CANT successfully do that UNLESS you can see the ground, they couldn't see the ground.  If it turns out that was the case, the poor buggers were doomed the second they lost power.  Sad, and frankly a very terrifying way to die.

Sounds like a case of spatial disorientation and failing to maintain control of the aircraft. It'd be interesting to know whether the helicopter maintained a flat profile to achieve that rate of descent or a nose down attitude because he wasn't flying instruments in any meaningful sense.
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Sculpin
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PostThu Jan 30, 2020 8:54 am 
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Mansplaining defined:

"You’ve been convicted of as many rapes as he has."

"Speaking ill of the dead shows a lack of class imho."

"when an "Alleged" crime is committed, many times only the two people who where actually present at the time know what really happened. There are many details of a crime that the public will never know, yet they act like they know everything."*

"Even if he was guilty of rape, I still feel it shows a lack of class to bring it up upon someones death, he was likely not the "same person" when he was younger and dumber with raging hormones"

"The assertion was he was a rapist.  There's a possibility he was and a possibility he wasn't."*

"I think gb's comment was in reference to other aspects of his life."

"It is not a question for us to judge at this point."

"We nearly all know about it, so why bring it up after his death? Imho, there was plenty of coverage about it after the fact when he was alive."

"Haven't seen anyone here minimizing it"

"What good does it do to bring up his transgressions?"

frown.gif

For all the men who offered explanations:  how would you feel if you were victimized by a prominent person - never punished - who was also a serial sexual abuser, only to have that person die and be lionized by society for his accomplishments?  This is not a hypothetical, it is exactly what happened to Radka, right here at our cozy hiking forum.  And yes, if you dredge up the Fred Beckey thread, you will find me mansplaining some of the same points made here.  But then I asked myself, "how would you feel...?"

OK, I have cast enough stones in every direction.  RIP Kobe Bryant.

*I asterisked two comments about "he said-she said."  As Neek pointed out, Kobe Bryant held a press conference after the charges were dropped in which he admitted that the woman did not consent.  On the one hand, kudos to him for addressing the issue in public, very few men do.  On the other hand, legal scholars have pointed out that had he spoken those words on the stand at trial, the jury would have been obligated to convict him and send him to prison.

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MtnGoat
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PostThu Jan 30, 2020 12:06 pm 
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I'd feel terrible, of course.

The problem being is that we have people making judgments on the basis of what they do not actually know, but claim to know or think they know.

How someone feels about such an event is not the same as proof the claims are true.

I find the use of sexism to attack sexism, problematic.  rolleyes.gif

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Tom
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PostThu Jan 30, 2020 12:28 pm 
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Quote:
how would you feel if you were victimized by a prominent person - never punished - who was also a serial sexual abuser, only to have that person die and be lionized by society for his accomplishments?  This is not a hypothetical, it is exactly what happened to Radka, right here at our cozy hiking forum.

Exactly what happened here?  AFAIK, Radka never said she was victimized by FB.  She said "His climbing pursuits and explorations are as legendary as his sexism and lack of respect for women."  There might be some similarities, but personally I don't appreciate your choice of words or depiction of this forum.
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fourteen410
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PostThu Jan 30, 2020 12:55 pm 
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+1 to everything Sculpin said.

I was going to write a nearly identical post, but decided to just do a facepalm and move on.

And yet here I am again smile.gif
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Tom
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PostThu Jan 30, 2020 1:04 pm 
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Quote:
Kobe Bryant held a press conference after the charges were dropped in which he admitted that the woman did not consent.

I believe this was a requirement to drop the charges.  Per the article Randy posted:

Quote:
The woman had filed a separate civil suit against Bryant, and had agreed to dismissal of the sexual-assault charge against him provided the athlete issued the following apology to his accuser, which was read in court by Bryant’s attorney

Not mansplaining, just clarifying.  My guess is it started out consensual and led to rape.  Am I 100% sure?  No.

How do I feel when people die who are idolized that I feel did things that were never punished.  Sure it bugs me.  I give it to a higher power, but I don't have a problem with anyone saying their peace.

I didn't really know much about Kobe.  Never really liked him as a player as I thought he was a bit too much about himself.  I was impressed with how he seemed to get his life in order.
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Backpacker Joe
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PostThu Jan 30, 2020 2:59 pm 
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NikonHiker wrote:
Backpacker Joe wrote:
The entire situation seems strange to me.  Its been reported that the Sikorsky S-76 (very expensive/advanced helicopter) was descending (read losing altitude) at OVER 2000' feet per minute.  In helicopter terms that's almost like an auto rotation to the ground.  That's what you must do when you lose power in a helicopter if your'e going to have any chance at survival.  If that's the case you CANT successfully do that UNLESS you can see the ground, they couldn't see the ground.  If it turns out that was the case, the poor buggers were doomed the second they lost power.  Sad, and frankly a very terrifying way to die.

Sounds like a case of spatial disorientation and failing to maintain control of the aircraft. It'd be interesting to know whether the helicopter maintained a flat profile to achieve that rate of descent or a nose down attitude because he wasn't flying instruments in any meaningful sense.

I dont disagree with you NH.  The funny thing is, that's one of the few corporate helicopters out there capable of instrument flying.  It makes no sense that an experienced pilot would fly hard into the ground like that.......

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Bernardo
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PostThu Jan 30, 2020 6:04 pm 
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What are the odds of mechanical failure and bad visibility at the same time?  Very low.
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