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DigitalJanitor
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PostThu Feb 06, 2020 11:53 am 
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Jake Neiffer wrote:
I will say that ideally there would be a lot more range riders or shepherds or cowboys that in addition to deterring wolves kept the livestock moving along on a frequent basis.

See, this is the kind of thing that makes sense to me... one of the things about wildlife is that they tend to move around a lot- both day to day and bigger migrational shifts seasonally. So keeping grazing animals moving would seem like a wise practice.

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Bootpathguy
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PostThu Feb 06, 2020 8:15 pm 
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"The groups reiterated the difficulty of collaring wolves, in addition to the potential danger to the wolves. They also argued it would shunt limited resources from nonlethal efforts. Instead, they said, the state should invest in “the complete and correct application of range riding and/or guard animals.”

https://www.union-bulletin.com/news/state/proposed-bill-would-mandate-collaring-wolves-in-problem-packs/article_67a81694-cb5b-5982-9ef1-2245e946e82d.html

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PostThu Feb 06, 2020 8:39 pm 
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Ordinarily, the Center for Biological Diversity would be the last group in the galaxy that I would side with, but the proposed bill (HB2906) is ill-conceived and will not address the issue at hand.

Legislative Hotline: 1-800-562-6000

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Jake Neiffer
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PostFri Feb 07, 2020 11:31 am 
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Sculpin wrote:
Cattle hammer the vegetation along stream channels until it is gone.  Only then will they venture farther afield to find new forage.

You're not following me apparently. I'm probably doing a poor job of explaining.  Anyway, yes, cattle, or elk or anything else can nuke the stream channels.  That's why you have to move them frequently.  They won't have access to any given spot until its fully recovered.  Often times I move cattle twice per day everyday during the growing season.

If you move them before they hammer the vegetation, nutrient recycling is accelerated.  Biodiversity increases and organic matter is added to the soil.

It doesn't matter if its elk moved by wolves or cows moved by horses & electric fence.  The end result is the same.

As far as solid sawgrass where Savory grazed, its untrue.  The rebuttals to Savory I've seen online are out in left field.  Check out Dirt to Soil by Gabe Brown among many other books.   Ruminants can increase biodiversity greatly.  This has been documented many times.

Cows due fine on cheatgrass, FWIW.  Some do better than others. I'm currently feeding some round bales that are probably 60% cheatgrass.

The majority of cattle in the US today are bred to excel in the feedlot, not the range.   There is currently a resurgence of using cattle with genetics that do well on very poor quality feed.  Mashona from Africa as one example.

Pharo Cattle Company wrote:
Mashona is an indigenous breed from Africa that originated with the Shona people in Zimbabwe.   The breed was developed under natural selection without any external inputs for thousands of years in an extremely harsh and unforgiving environment. 

https://www.pharocattle.com/blog/heat-tolerant-composites
https://www.pharocattle.com/semen/composite-other-breeds/diamond-7558d
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Sculpin
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PostSat Feb 08, 2020 7:57 am 
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Jake Neiffer wrote:
It doesn't matter if its [b]elk moved by wolves or cows moved by horses & electric fence.  The end result is the same.

Jake, I agree with you, FWIW.  I believe there is a role for cattle grazing.  A properly grazed grassland is far better than an irrigated soybean field in the same location.  There is a large human population to feed and cattle are an integral part of that.

It sounds like you actively manage your cattle.  The problem is the paradigm of open range grazing on public land, where the rancher simply releases the cattle in the spring and rounds them up in the fall (I'm glossing over a bit, I know it is not that simple).

The problem is that the profitability strongly hinges on whether daily salaries are being paid to cowboys through the growing season.  Thus when the WDWF told ranchers they had to tolerate the wolves and that range riding would help, the ranchers said "you pay for it."  And the WDWF is doing that.  Notice the logic here.  If wolves are part of the landscape, then the free market is being distorted in favor of government subsidies to these ranches.  It won't last forever.

If ranchers would agree to send out cowboys to move the herds every day, things would be a lot better (still too many cows on the land though) and the wolves would stay farther away.

Do you have trouble with cheatgrass seeds in respiratory tracts?  I read a post by a veterinarians group about how common these infections were.  My brother-in-law got a cheatgrass seed in his nose and it just kept going deeper, we almost had to abort our hike but he finally got it out.   eek.gif

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PostSat Feb 08, 2020 9:33 am 
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sculpin wrote:
"... the free market is being distorted..."

There is no "free market" when it concerns food production in this country.
It's all subsidized by the government in one way or another. Doesn't matter if it's cows, chickens, soybeans, wheat, milk, or anything else you put in your mouth.
That's why Americans eat the cheapest food on the planet.

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MtnGoat
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PostSat Feb 08, 2020 10:41 am 
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No it's not. It's in spite of the subsidies. Power of capitalism.

We can go around on this again and again, but the proof is in the pudding. Remove all subsidies.

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graywolf
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PostSat Feb 08, 2020 4:15 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
No it's not. It's in spite of the subsidies. Power of capitalism.

We can go around on this again and again, but the proof is in the pudding. Remove all subsidies.

I curious about this.  Is there actually proof that our food is cheapest without any subsidies?  I'm not being antagonistic here, just really want to know if this is the case.

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PostSat Feb 08, 2020 6:20 pm 
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do some shopping online.

try.... farm-raised tilapia filets in Paris, for starters.

eek.gif

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Sculpin
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PostSun Feb 09, 2020 7:08 am 
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hijacked.gif

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Jake Neiffer
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PostSun Feb 09, 2020 9:46 pm 
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Sculpin wrote:
The problem is that the profitability strongly hinges on whether daily salaries are being paid to cowboys through the growing season.  Thus when the WDWF told ranchers they had to tolerate the wolves and that range riding would help, the ranchers said "you pay for it."  And the WDWF is doing that.  Notice the logic here.  If wolves are part of the landscape, then the free market is being distorted in favor of government subsidies to these ranches.  It won't last forever.

If ranchers would agree to send out cowboys to move the herds every day, things would be a lot better (still too many cows on the land though) and the wolves would stay farther away.

I agree.  One thing to keep in mind though is that forage productivity increases significantly with frequent movement.  I read about one rancher near Boise with 9 inches of annual rainfall who claims to be grazing 6X the amount of cattle with daily moves than neighboring ranches achieve via set stocking.  This changes financial considerations and may justify the additional labor in some circumstances.

Quote:
Do you have trouble with cheatgrass seeds in respiratory tracts?  I read a post by a veterinarians group about how common these infections were.  My brother-in-law got a cheatgrass seed in his nose and it just kept going deeper, we almost had to abort our hike but he finally got it out.

I haven't had issues with cheatgrass, but generally don't graze it once its cured.  I've heard similar stories to yours though.  I have seen mouth infections from foxtail, another one of our lovely plants.
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Jake Neiffer
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PostMon Feb 10, 2020 9:33 am 
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I was trying to find a photo of the vegetation on the top of Steamboat Rock.  I was unsuccessful in the TRs.  embarassedlaugh.gif  Sculpin do you have one?
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Sculpin
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PostThu Feb 13, 2020 11:40 am 
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Jake Neiffer wrote:
I was trying to find a photo of the vegetation on the top of Steamboat Rock

I do, but...to avoid searching through thousands of images, I would have to remember the year I went most recently, and that is a very hard thing to do for me.  Mostly I have slides in boxes....

Sorry.

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treeswarper
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PostThu Feb 13, 2020 9:19 pm 
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It doesn't seem that long ago, but I think these are from 2014 because I had my pointy trailer then.

Looks like it was early Fall.


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