Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Question, are hikers anti family snobs?
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mb
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PostTue Feb 25, 2020 8:31 pm 
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Also go look up "4 Wheel Bob"
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Pyrites
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PostTue Feb 25, 2020 11:42 pm 
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WaState wrote:
This includes, (not excludes), it includes hikers, horses, boaters, hunters, families, children, disabled, elderly (the infirm) and off roaders.

All these happen on public lands now, every day. Exception might be those so infirm they can’t really travel.

The rest is just efforts to divide. Putting on shoes and walking down the trail is a very pro-family activity too.

It’s hard not to pity hate.
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 12:21 am 
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Cyclopath wrote:
Anybody who can operate a computer can post here and have a voice.

Might get you "a" voice, but the hierarchy of voices getting respect in any online situation is determined by volume (both in terms of quantity AND loudness) of posts. Gotta really smother the boards if you want to ESTABLISH AUTHORITY.

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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 12:29 am 
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mb wrote:
There absolutely are elements of elitism, racism, and naiveté in the history and present of the "environmental" movement.

But taking this tact doesn't seem to have granted you anyone willing to listen to it! And it's certainly not the entirety of the movement.

(Naiveté you ask? I know one suburban open space district where the environmentalist locals got regulations enacted that there be no man made structures. Now those very same people are old and want some benches to rest on, but the district is like "sorry you can't have them, because when you were young you prohibited them for all future users." Actually the district is much nicer than that and has placed some conveniently shaped rocks at some suitable location... but is that violating the spirit of the prohibition or not?)

Sounds like a fairy story to me.   Name the "suburban open space district" and cite the regulations.
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 2:33 am 
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ooo I can hardly wait for this one....

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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 4:19 pm 
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RandyHiker wrote:
Name the "suburban open space district" and cite the regulations

Marin Country Open Space district has both "preserves" and "parks".

The "parks" are often highly developed, but the "preserves" have limited man made structures.

If you really want I could ask the staff member who told me this story what document this is found in. I'd assume it's some Master Plan or other document which I can't easily find on line.

I did find this letter from one of the advocacy groups which is anti-bench-in-preserves; note this group is highly effective at getting what they want.

http://www.marinconservationleague.org/images/stories/pdfs/advocacy/adv_pos_inclusive-access-plan_mcl_2015.12.03.pdf
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 4:56 pm 
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mb wrote:
RandyHiker wrote:
Name the "suburban open space district" and cite the regulations

Marin Country Open Space district has both "preserves" and "parks".

The "parks" are often highly developed, but the "preserves" have limited man made structures.

If you really want I could ask the staff member who told me this story what document this is found in. I'd assume it's some Master Plan or other document which I can't easily find on line.

I did find this letter from one of the advocacy groups which is anti-bench-in-preserves; note this group is highly effective at getting what they want.

http://www.marinconservationleague.org/images/stories/pdfs/advocacy/adv_pos_inclusive-access-plan_mcl_2015.12.03.pdf

Doesn't quite fit your fairy story about the same folks later in life ruing what they had asked for in their younger days. 

Sounds like there are still people lobbying hard to maintain the preserves in their natural state, not people lobbying to allow what they once lobbied against.

IME -- much of the "preservation" efforts made in the last half century have been made by older folks -- wanting to protect the lands they enjoyed in their youth for future generations to enjoy.

e.g.

Howard Zahniser was the primary author of the Wilderness Act -- but passed away shortly before it was passed by Congress.

Harvey Manning did much of his hiking and mountaineering the 1930s and 1940s -- starting his conservation efforts in 1957 working doggedly to protect places to hike from then on.   He was particularly active in preserving much of the "Issaquah Alps" for foot oriented recreation.
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PostSun Mar 01, 2020 10:13 pm 
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I don't know if it's exactly the same people or not. I think it either was or was their friends.

Note that I totally understand the goals of limiting man made structures. And preservation. But this group, which indeed was important in the creation of this particular system a few decades ago, is notorious for have an often elitist, and not necessarily scientific view on a wide variety of topics.

If I recall correctly, Manning was to some extent; while Spring was not?
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Pyrites
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PostMon Mar 02, 2020 1:37 am 
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I’ve sat around the same fire with the Springs and Manning. I wouldn't call them elitist. They were quite kind to our family even if we weren’t in the same league.

Manning often advocated VW bugs as hiker mobiles, and certainly not pristine collector quality ones.

The Springs and Manning worked for decades to increase the numbers of people walking in the woods. It’s flat out falsehood to describe walking as an elitist activity.
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PostMon Mar 02, 2020 9:16 am 
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If you ever met Harvey you would know he was the farthest thing from an elitist. lol.gif

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PostMon Mar 02, 2020 9:20 am 
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I have a Mountaineers annual that describes a backpacking trip Manning and Betty took together before they were married, or just after, to the Olympics. It rained like a bastard, it was cold as hell, and they huddled in the deep roots of trees because they didn't have a tent.

Not elitist. A jerk, perhaps, at least in later years - necessary to get what we have now, so it was a jerk with a cause  - but not elitist.

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Randito
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PostMon Mar 02, 2020 9:26 am 
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Pyrites wrote:
The Springs and Manning worked for decades to increase the numbers of people walking in the woods. It’s flat out falsehood to describe walking as an elitist activity.

Absolutely, Manning worked extensively on the Issaquah Alps to ensure natural environments for connecting with nature in a simple way close to Puget Sound City.  His "Footsore" series of books documented walking/hiking routes in the cities and suburbs of the PNW.  He included bus route information in the books to enable folk that couldn't afford a car to partake of these trails.  (The books were published before not having a car was an urban fashion statement)


Quad wheel ATVs start at about $7000 , if anything ATV riders are economic elites.
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PostMon Mar 02, 2020 10:49 am 
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Kim Brown wrote:
I have a Mountaineers annual that describes a backpacking trip Manning and Betty took together before they were married, or just after, to the Olympics. It rained like a bastard, it was cold as hell, and they huddled in the deep roots of trees because they didn't have a tent.

Do know which annual that is in. I would be interested in reading it.

I did find an interesting article Harvey wrote in the 1959 annual about climbing Mt. Olympus in the winter. The article starts on page 63.

Here are what I thought to be some interesting quotes from the article.

Quote:
It was not a question of whether the peak had been climbed in winter. In such a semitropical cycle as that of the late 1930’s and early 40’s Januaries were roughly equivalent to the Junes of a decade later.

Quote:
Pacific Northwest climate had begun to deteriorate when the dams were built and simply went all to pieces after the Bombs.


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PostMon Mar 02, 2020 11:14 am 
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I don't remember,but I only have a few annuals so it can't be hard to find; I will check when I get home.

But I'm hoping it's not in a reprinted contribution by him for Pack & Paddle magazine, which I have a full collection.

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Voxxjin
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PostTue Mar 03, 2020 11:12 am 
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WaState wrote:
We all know to be a real hiker that it takes the ability to walk some distance and be in shape.This tends to cut out the elderly, disabled, overweight, sickly, small children etc. These groups of people could enjoy the outdoors by using motorized offroad vechicals. But increasingly are being cut out and cut off from  the outdoors.Are hikers snobs ??? Anti family?  Inclusive except for the physically unable to hike inthe outdoors????

So the ability to walk some distance and being in shape = a real hiker. I wouldn't call myself in shape according to the scale and my waistline but I can do 15+ miles a day hiking. Guess I am not a real hiker.

You mention elderly, disabled, overweight, sickly, and small children. I see people who are 70+ on trails all the time. Some move faster than I do. I see a fair amount of over weight people too on the trails. Sickly? Not sure what you mean here. Frail maybe? Or actually sick? Little kids, I see lots on the trails both actually walking miles or being carried in a backpack. Now we come to disabled which is the tricky one. Lots of disabilities out there but for this post you must be talking about people who no longer have the use of their legs. Yes they do face challenges. Not sure what your solution would be, pave all trails? But even 'real' hikers find themselves a places they can no longer go. Many parks have smaller trails and such that people with wheelchairs can go on. Will you get to Enchanted Valley? No. Will you be able to see views of Mt. Rainier, yes. Are they cut off from the outdoors? I don't think so. IN fact I think parks are more available now than they were 20 years ago.

But are hikers anti-family? No. I see tons of families on the trails. Maybe being a real hiker also blinds you to all of the people on the trail.

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