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fourteen410
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 11:03 am 
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moonspots wrote:
I like looking at a dark night sky, now that's been taken away, and for no legitimately good reason....

Saving lives isn't a good enough reason for you?
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 11:12 am 
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fourteen410 wrote:
moonspots wrote:
I like looking at a dark night sky, now that's been taken away, and for no legitimately good reason....

Saving lives isn't a good enough reason for you?

you're comparing like 100 lives per year that might be saved from this to the impacts of the night sky for 8B people, not to mention long term research into the solar system which is kind of a big thing.
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Anne Elk
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 11:31 am 
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Just wait until some asshat puts up an LED billboard up there (or on the moon).  huh.gif

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Cyclopath
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 1:33 pm 
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moonspots wrote:
I see no good use for these things. I couldn't care less about having internet in the wilderness. And I like looking at a dark night sky, now that's been taken away, and for no legitimately good reason....

iron wrote:
you're comparing like 100 lives per year that might be saved from this to the impacts of the night sky for 8B people, not to mention long term research into the solar system which is kind of a big thing.

They're not putting these satellites up to rescue hikers or let us watch cat videos in camp.  Half of humanity has no internet access.  A lot of rural areas in the US are underserved.  Cheaper SOS messagers are just a side effect of global internet coverage.  Giving 3+ billion people access to the internet - improved educational and work opportunities - is a worthy reason.  If it means more telecommuting that could even be an environmental net positive.

It's going to change stargazing forever, and obviously for the worse.  It's going to be bad for astronomy, not just optical.  It's bad for night photos.  It's bad for going backpacking where you get away from the city and can see more than 3 or 4 stars.  It's really a shame that getting permission for this doesn't even take stargazing and science into account, this stuff isn't a consideration.  It's also unfortunate that these satellites are so much brighter than they need to be.

But it's going to happen whether any of us like it or not.
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Anne Elk
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 1:39 pm 
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I find it odd that a half-dozen or so countries have been putting up satellites of one kind or another since the 60's, with little disturbance to the visuals of the night sky (even providing a a bit of entertainment - satellite watching), but now they have to be up in "strings", in low orbit.  Maybe when I have some spare time I can get Google to explain why they have to be put up so intrusively.  Perhaps public input to Mr. Musk might help; can't hurt; also attaboy him in the same letter for Tesla.  Can't hurt.

How to contact Elon Musk & Board of Directors

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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 2:18 pm 
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The low orbit part is to reduce latency.  Being closer means they can send data with less wait time to get it.
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fourteen410
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 2:23 pm 
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iron wrote:
you're comparing like 100 lives per year that might be saved from this to the impacts of the night sky for 8B people, not to mention long term research into the solar system which is kind of a big thing.

And you're assuming that there are 8 billion people who might care about more tiny dots passing over the sky.
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 2:32 pm 
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fourteen410 wrote:
iron wrote:
you're comparing like 100 lives per year that might be saved from this to the impacts of the night sky for 8B people, not to mention long term research into the solar system which is kind of a big thing.

And you're assuming that there are 8 billion people who might care about more tiny dots passing over the sky.

the nighttime sky had been one of the last, if not the last vestige of this planet largely not impacted by humans. it has been a constant for the history of mankind. now it will be littered, forever. so some guy can make a $.
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 2:43 pm 
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Well said, Iron!
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Anne Elk
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 2:48 pm 
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I'm with Iron on this one.  I suppose it's not a popular POV, but one could consider the sky part of "the commons", at least from an aesthetic viewpoint. The light pollution from cities is bad enough.  There are other issues that approach this issue from different angles - e.g., use of the moon.  Unfortunately humanity has moved too far from our empire-building, colonization days. International groups have made some progress on this, like with the scientific use of Antarctica (even though Argentina keeps asserting some of it is their terrotory).  But we're even falling down on that one, as a recent NY Times article talked about tourism getting out of control down there.

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kiliki
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 4:24 pm 
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Slugman wrote:
Ah, the tinfoil hat brigade is out in force, hating what they know nothing about. No more dark skies because of a few tiny dots? Hahahaha! Dumbest thing ever written. Our whole civilization has destroyed dark night skies a thousand times worse already, much of the light pollution serving no useful purpose.

Itís amazing to me that people complain from a standpoint of complete ignorance. They hate something even when they donít even know what it can do or what itís for.

Huh, well, I guess that makes the nation's (and the world's) astronomers part of the tinfoil hat brigade/ignorant/etc. Scientists/astronomers have been very vocal about this issue.

Here's a page with a ton of good links, and photos.

https://www.astro.princeton.edu/~gbakos/satellites/index.html

You can get the gist here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/11/science/spacex-starlink-satellites.html

SpaceXís 30,000 satellites might also just be the start as other companies, such as Amazon, Telesat and OneWeb, plan to launch similar mega-constellations.

ďIf there are lots and lots of bright moving objects in the sky, it tremendously complicates our job,Ē Dr. Lowenthal said. ďIt potentially threatens the science of astronomy itself.Ē

Jonathan McDowell, an astronomer at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics who closely tracks objects in orbit, agrees.

ďThere is a point at which it makes ground-based astronomy impossible to do,Ē he said. ďIím not saying Starlink is that point. But if you just donít worry about it and go another 10 years with more and more mega-constellations, eventually you are going to come to a point where you canít do astronomy anymore. And so letís talk about it now.Ē
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kiliki
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 4:31 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
If it means more telecommuting that could even be an environmental net positive.

Ahh...remember when we thought technology would set us all free? I would be able to live in Sun Valley or Orcas Island and still do my job. Ha. It's not the lack of internet that is hindering this. It's workplace culture and policies. The tech companies can be the worst about this. The federal government is moving backward. This administration just tightened rules about working remotely or from home.
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fourteen410
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 8:34 pm 
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No one is arguing that satellite interference with astronomical equipment isn't an issue. There is merit to that concern. The argument is that more tiny dots moving across the night sky is not a good enough reason to stifle technological progress - if satellites are the means of doing so.
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Anne Elk
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 9:50 pm 
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kiliki wrote:
Ahh...remember when we thought technology would set us all free? I would be able to live in Sun Valley or Orcas Island and still do my job. Ha. It's not the lack of internet that is hindering this. It's workplace culture and policies. The tech companies can be the worst about this. The federal government is moving backward. This administration just tightened rules about working remotely or from home.

That reminds me of a conversation I got into with an HR director where I worked. The company wanted more input re how to cut down on single occupancy commutes (the state had been badgering employers of a certain size to do this). I suggested a 4 day work week - something everyone would get behind. He said, no, the BoD had rejected that out of hand; they were already getting 50 hrs/wk out of salaried management as more or less a regular thing; if they went to a 4 hr work week, they'd lose 10 hrs. In the ensuing debate he said that my POV suggested I probably wasn't management material.  I said, "Well I guess NOT!"  and resisted telling him that his predecessor dropped dead of a heart attack within 5 years of retiring.

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Chief Joseph
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PostWed Feb 26, 2020 9:55 pm 
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iron wrote:
the nighttime sky had been one of the last, if not the last vestige of this planet largely not impacted by humans. it has been a constant for the history of mankind. now it will be littered, forever. so some guy can make a $.

I agree.

As to the original topic, Trail Runners seem to be a "Different breed"....than your typical hiker, I am thinking they are out there more for the workout than to enjoy the outdoors. Plus they don't want to be carrying overnight gear while running.

But to be hiking-running alone far from any means of rescue, it seems kind of foolhardy to not at least carry an emergency beacon if you don't have overnight gear.

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