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Cyclopath
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PostMon Mar 02, 2020 7:00 pm 
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The FAA is considering a rule change for drones.  Comment period ends tonight.  Comment link in the article below.


The new rules are largely designed to address safety and security concerns raised by law enforcement agencies. They worry that drones flying too close to an airport could disrupt operations or even cause a crash. They also worry about terrorists using drones to deliver payloads to heavily populated areas.

To address these concerns, the new FAA rule would require all new drones weighing more than 0.55 pounds to connect over the Internet to one of several location-tracking databases (still to be developed by private vendors) and provide real-time updates on their location. That would enable the FAA or law enforcement agencies to see, at a glance, which registered drones are in any particular area.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/02/new-faa-drone-rule-is-a-giant-middle-finger-to-aviation-hobbyists/
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Randito
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PostMon Mar 02, 2020 7:23 pm 
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Sounds good to me.  A scofflaw drone operator was using a very large professional level drone to photograph Snow Lake and Chair peak one day while I was out there.  It was very loud.  It was a violation of FAA and USFS regulations of course.  So tracking recording the whereabouts of more capable drones seems like good policy to me.
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Ski
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PostMon Mar 02, 2020 7:58 pm 
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Ski, in a comment submitted 03-02-20 wrote:
Personal "drones" should never have been made available to the general public in the first place.
They have proven themselves to be a public nuisance in far too many cases.
They have disrupted events at National Parks. They have been used to harry wildlife in National Parks. One idiot crash-landed one in one of the hot pools in Yellowstone National Park. In another instance, an entire crowd of people were troubled when a man was running one in Volcanos National Park in Hawaii, subsequently leading to his arrest.
They have hampered firefighters in both cities and in rural areas. In one instance In North Hollywood, California, hundreds of people were left without electrical power for hours because some moron thought it appropriate to fly his "drone" over a local fire scene. Wildland firefighters from the U.S. Forest Service have had their operations interrupted because of "drones".
In Europe, a "drone" crashed into a historic building and damaged it.
Just say NO to drones! We don't need them! Only the people flying the drones are in favor of their use! Most everybody else hates the stupid things!
I had a neighbor kid crash land one on the roof of my house a few years ago! What recourse do i have if it had damaged my home?
I am fully in favor of making it as difficult and as cumbersome as possible for operators of "drones". Make them ALL register. Make them ALL tie into the internet so that we know their exact locations at all times.
The only thing you could do to make it better would be to outlaw the damn things altogether!
While they may be a great tool used in the hands of professionals or lands management agencies or wildlife management agencies, the amateur "hobby" users have caused nothing but problems with these things.
Get them OUT of public airspace!

you'll find a file attached - a short list I put together five years ago. a bit dated, but it certainly illustrates my point.

Thank you very much for your time and consideration.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-medical-helicopter-drone-20150812-story.html Drone almost hits medical helicopter carrying patient to Fresno hospital 10/29/15

http://fstoppers.com/aerial/drone-strikes-west-hollywood-power-lines-647-people-lose-power Aerial Drone Strikes West Hollywood Power Lines - 647 People Lose Power 10/27/15

http://www.wehoville.com/2015/10/26/drone-is-apparent-cause-of-weho-power-outage/ Drone is Apparent Cause of West Hollywood Power Outage 10/26/15

http://observer.com/2013/08/lets-all-watch-a-drone-fall-out-of-the-sky-and-smack-a-person-in-the-face/ Let’s All Watch a Drone Fall Out of the Sky and Smack a Person in the Face 08/26/13

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-drone-drugs-20150813-story.html Two Plead Guilty in Border Drug Smuggling by Drone 08/12/15 "Mexican media have reported that drug cartels are commissioning engineers for custom-made drones."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3136087/Tourists-spark-security-scare-Milan-crashing-remote-control-drone-famous-cathedral.html Tourists spark security scare in Milan after crashing remote-control drone into famous cathedral 06/23/15

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/05/25/drone-crashes-hits-2-people-during-marblehead-parade/ Drone Crashes, Hits 2 People During Marblehead Parade 05/25/15

https://photographyisnotacrime.com/2015/10/kentucky-judge-dismisses-charges-against-man-for-shooting-drone-out-of-sky/ Kentucky Judge Dismisses Charges Against Man for Shooting Drone Out of Sky

incidents cited in previous "drone" discussion threads:

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/28914009/drone-operator-chased-tased-by-ranger-at-hawaii-volcanoes-national-park Drone operator chased, tased by ranger at Hawaii Volcanoes National Park  04/27/15

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/04/usa-drones-yellowstone-idUSL2N0RZ00420141004 Oregon man fined for flying drone that buzzed bison at Yellowstone park 10/03/14

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-29420039 Dutch tourist drone pilot fined for Yellowstone flight 09/29/14

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/09/new-docs-show-drone-landed-on-lincoln-head-at-mount-rushmore-in-2013/ New docs show drone landed on Lincoln head at Mount Rushmore in 2013 09/27/14

https://www.rt.com/usa/190040-yellowstone-drone-crash-ban/ Man who crashed drone into Yellowstone hot spring sentenced to probation and banned from National Park 09/23/14

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/08/drone-goes-down-into-famed-yellowstone-national-park-hot-spring/ Drone goes down into famed Yellowstone National Park hot spring 08/06/14



http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-reward-drone-arrests-20150728-story.html $75,000 in rewards offered to catch operators who flew drones above fires 10/29/15

http://www.latimes.com/local/political/la-me-pc-fire-officials-warn-lawmakers-about-threat-of-drones-to-firefighting-aircraft-20150818-story.html Private drones are putting firefighters in 'immediate danger,' California fire official says 08/18/15

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/cheap-drones-are-interfering-with-firefighters-work_55c8a7fce4b0923c12bd5953 Cheap Drones Are Interfering With Firefighters' Work 08/10/15 "The U.S. Forest Service has tallied 13 wildfires in which suspected drones interfered with firefighting aircraft this year — 11 since late June — up from four fires last year and only scattered incidents before."

http://www.npr.org/2015/07/23/425654435/california-firefighters-forced-to-call-off-missions-after-drone-interference California Firefighters Forced To Call Off Missions After Drone Interference 07/23/15

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/drones-california-fire/ Consumer drones interfere with CA firefighting efforts 07/19/15

regulations proposed/implemented:

http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_29008034/mercury-news-editorial-drone-registration-is-welcome-step The Federal Aviation Administration and the Transportation Department announced Monday that they'll require current and future recreational drone users to register their unmanned aircraft with the government before Christmas. It's an important first step toward bringing accountability to drone ownership. 10/29/15

http://www.govtech.com/public-safety/Drone-Regulations-Necessary-Now-Maine-Senator-Warns.html According to the FAA, there were 764 possible encounters with unmanned aircraft reported by pilots or airport personnel between November 2014 and August 2015. 10/29/15

http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_29008034/mercury-news-editorial-drone-registration-is-welcome-step A federal report issued recently by California Sen. Dianne Feinstein says pilots report more than 100 cases of drones being flown improperly every month. Close calls between commercial airlines and drones flying thousands of feet in the air are becoming routine: There have been 18 reports in San Jose alone since April 2014. Without regulation, it's only a matter of time before a drone brings down a jetliner.
Meanwhile, drones have driven off airborne firefighters trying to control wildfires, increasing property destruction and endangering lives. They've plowed into crowds at weddings and sports events around the country and crashed into skyscrapers. (More than 400 U.S. military drones have crashed since 2001 -- and they're guided by well-trained, experienced pilots.)
They've been used to drop illegal drugs into prisons. 10/29/15

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2999449/google-amazon-and-wal-mart-join-faa-drone-task-force.html Google, Amazon, and WalMart Join FAA Drone Task Force 10/29/15

http://www.csmonitor.com/Technology/2015/1021/Drones-out-of-control-What-is-Congress-doing Drones Out of Control - What is Congress Doing? 10/21/15

http://union-bulletin.com/news/2015/oct/21/editorial-registration-drone-aircraft-makes-sense/ The FAA is investigating an incident where debris from a small privately owned drone fell and injured an 11-month-old girl in a stroller in Los Angeles 10/21/15

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Sore Feet
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PostMon Mar 02, 2020 8:23 pm 
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Spoken like a true curmudgeon there Ski.  Like any sect of recreational activity or hobby, you only hear about the incidents that reflect poorly on the group in question, never about the times when nothing happened or nothing went wrong.  I'm sure you could find just as many incidents involving ATVs, Motor Bikes, Mountain Bikes, Guns, Boats, Snowmobiles that reflect just as poorly on their user bases...take your pick.  There is likely an order of magnitude greater number of responsible drone operators out there than there are people being assholes about it.

Full disclaimer, yes I own a drone.  I also have no problem with more stringent requirements for flying, and mandatory registration (which did in fact already exist for a while).  The problem is that the people who don't follow the rules aren't going to change their behavior by instituting these sort of rules.  An always-online requirement isn't likely to be tenable until global internet access is a viable thing (though that may not be as far off as it may seem, but it's still a ways out).  Not only will drone users complain about having vast swaths of land cut off from use where it should be no problem at all to fly because there just isn't anyone around - say, in the middle of the desert in Utah for example - but it will also makes hard enforcing no-fly zones effectively impossible via wireless.  That sort of thing has to be controlled via the firmware of the drone and / or the app used to control it.

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Ski
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PostMon Mar 02, 2020 8:39 pm 
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Sore Feet wrote:
"... ATVs, Motor Bikes, Mountain Bikes, Guns, Boats, Snowmobiles..."

The subject of the thread is drones, not any of the other things you've listed.

The list I posted above is only a partial list. I was in a hurry when I put it together, and that was five years ago. I have no doubt there have been more, and most likely more outrageous "drone" incidents since then.

If "drones" were not a problem, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Obviously they ARE a problem. Enough of a problem that the federal government has finally gotten off their ass to do something about it.

I take great pride in being a curmudgeon. Thanks for noticing. up.gif

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backpacker92out
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PostMon Mar 02, 2020 9:13 pm 
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My favorite drone moment was watching the sunset at Mount Baker and someone flew their drone 100ft above me and just sat it there. So I watched the sunset while listening to VRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

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Riverside Laker
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PostMon Mar 02, 2020 9:40 pm 
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That plan seems easy to circumvent. Cut the communication chip out and fly it anyway. Maybe there'll be some foolproof way to not allow them to fly unless the communication works. Maybe E-bikes can't be hacked to go 29 mph! Yeah, right. People are clever.
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alpendave
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PostTue Mar 03, 2020 6:00 am 
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Good points there Ski. With that said, they do make drones that are programmed to follow the user who wears a locator beacon. For example, it will chase a snowboarder down a hill. I think it would be reasonable to have them if they will only operate a certain distance from the operator, but without being able to travel long distances from their base. That’s not to say allow those ones in all areas, of course.

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Randito
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PostTue Mar 03, 2020 6:35 am 
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I believe the FAA's top goal is to better protect air traffic around airports and venues where large numbers of people gather.

Certainly an operator with malintent can circumvent the tracking mechanism.  But with this regulation , an untracked drone can be presumed to have bad intentions and harsh measures taken against immediately.
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PostTue Mar 03, 2020 9:53 am 
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From my perspective, I take issue with the application of 'drone' rules based on unique drone characteristics and the problems they can cause, to classic RC aircraft which are not drones.

They should make the new rules for the new technologies which are the source of the problems, and not classic RC platforms which have a near impeccable safety record.

The classic RC safety record is due to:
-the inherent limitations of a fully 'human in loop' control scheme and no autopilot
- the fact that the external third person viewpoint inherent to the operation of the system gives superior situational awareness, in fact better than nearly all manned aviation. (other than maybe hang gliders, paragliders).
- the learning curve is difficult and expensive, with every mistake punished by yet another crash

These issues are fundamentally different than drone systems which have allowed users to completely bypass the traditional RC community and it's standards, as well as the limitations to use and learning inherent to non autopiloted systems. Never before could you pick up something in a box from a seller, charge it, and simply start flying it without weeks or month of nearly continual crashing as with non autopiloted RC aircraft.

The fact that they want to require an internet connection will pretty much wipe out my alpine soaring hobby, where far more mtns than not do not have internet access. I've spent decades and many thousand flight hours enjoying silent flight against a backdrop of mtns and clouds, now they will take that from everyone in the sport, my fellow pilots, my son. We pose zero risk to any of their stated concerns.

Regulate new risks, don't harm  proven safe tech and hobbies

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Randito
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PostTue Mar 03, 2020 10:06 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
classic RC aircraft which are not drones

Yasureyabetcha.  One of the top concerns of the FAA is protecting large venues from attack by remotely piloted aircraft.  What difference does it make whether the remote pilot is human or silicon?

A large RC aircraft is certainly capable of delivering a deadly payload to a sports stadium with many thousands of people.
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PostTue Mar 03, 2020 10:15 am 
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You think someone who'd do that will follow the regs? Besides there is already a difference. A line of sight classic system requires a local pilot. An autopilot can fly as far as battery lasts

You can't even make a single dent in the use of fixed wing RC. People have been homebuilding easily at any scale desired since artificial flight began.

They don't even make any distinctions between urban and rural airspaces. There are few to none stadiums in rural areas at remote mountains or RC fields

The only impact here is on innocent people in a hobby with 60 years of safe flight

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Ski
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PostTue Mar 03, 2020 10:40 am 
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Cyclopath wrote:
The FAA is considering a rule change for drones.  Comment period ends tonight.  Comment link in the article below.

(* emphasis added for those who missed it *)

Comment period ended at midnight last night, but have fun arguing about it among yourselves.

up.gif

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PostTue Mar 03, 2020 10:48 am 
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Ski wrote:


Comment period ended at midnight last night, but have fun arguing about it among yourselves.

up.gif

When have we not? wink.gif

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Randito
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PostTue Mar 03, 2020 4:31 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
The only impact here is on innocent people in a hobby with 60 years of safe flight

Boo hoo.   All the folks going through airport security since 9/11/2001 are also inconvienenced and are equally innocent of malicious acts.
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