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Malachai Constant
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PostMon May 11, 2020 8:53 pm 
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Do not order Mexican food in Canada either, found maybe one place in Ontario that was a good as a mid range taco truck. Even Canadians call poutine “heart attack on a plate”. Now if was called New Haven pizza it would be better. Boston has ok pizza but great cannoli.

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graywolf
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PostMon May 11, 2020 9:04 pm 
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Ski wrote:
hilarious. lol.gif

have "your buddy" look me up, tough guy.

Count me in Ski.

Xman, have your buddy look me up too.

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Ski
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PostMon May 11, 2020 10:05 pm 
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I love these guys. lol.gif

The keyboard warriors are always good for a laugh. up.gif

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostTue May 12, 2020 1:10 am 
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Tom wrote:
Who else wants to get in on the political soapbox before we have to lock this one?

OK great, now that everyone has been given a chance to speak their mind, I would ask all to review the forum rules and make a genuine effort to live by, respect, and honor these terms.

www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7976546

Thank you in advance.
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treeswarper
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PostTue May 12, 2020 7:22 am 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
Do not order Mexican food in Canada either, found maybe one place in Ontario that was a good as a mid range taco truck. Even Canadians call poutine “heart attack on a plate”. Now if was called New Haven pizza it would be better. Boston has ok pizza but great cannoli.

We used to go across to a Greek place that was excellent.  I can't remember if it was in Osoyoos or Penticton.

That was when border crossing was no big deal, although the U.S. side wasn't as hard core as I had feared coming back from the bad pizza trip.  I feared for my bags of tube sand, but he didn't bother and we were OK to bring what was left of the pizza back with us.  Back in da old days, they didn't even ask for ID to get back.  They'd just ask where you lived and what country born in.

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jinx'sboy
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PostTue May 12, 2020 7:55 am 
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“.... We used to go across to a Greek place that was excellent.  I can't remember if it was in Osoyoos or Penticton....”

Theo’s - in Penticton.  I haven’t been in quite a while, but it’s used to be great!
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Randito
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PostTue May 12, 2020 8:29 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Randito wrote:
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/just-the-facts/

The bias of the bias checkers is also always a factor, as we see with your link, kindly provided. This is exactly what actual science is designed to resolve.

When people encounter information that contradicts what  they have accepted as truth, their overwhelming tendency is to reject the new information regardless of its actual veracity.  Only exceptional individuals are able to evaluate new information carefully and objectively and then reconsider whether what they have accepted as true may not be the whole story.
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MtnGoat
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PostTue May 12, 2020 9:36 am 
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Randito wrote:
When people encounter information that contradicts what  they have accepted as truth, their overwhelming tendency is to reject the new information regardless of its actual veracity.  Only exceptional individuals are able to evaluate new information carefully and objectively and then reconsider whether what they have accepted as true may not be the whole story.

Exactly. Which is why following the process, and not emotions, is so important.

What problem, if any, did you actually find with the arguments made by the article?

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Randito
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PostTue May 12, 2020 11:17 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Randito wrote:
When people encounter information that contradicts what  they have accepted as truth, their overwhelming tendency is to reject the new information regardless of its actual veracity.  Only exceptional individuals are able to evaluate new information carefully and objectively and then reconsider whether what they have accepted as true may not be the whole story.

Exactly. Which is why following the process, and not emotions, is so important.

What problem, if any, did you actually find with the arguments made by the article?

From the article

Quote:
Based on a broad array of scientific data, Just Facts has computed that the anxiety created by reactions to Covid-19—such as stay-at-home orders, business shutdowns, media exaggerations, and legitimate concerns about the virus—will destroy at least seven times more years of human life than can possibly be saved by lockdowns to control the spread of the disease. This figure is a bare minimum, and the actual one is likely more than 90 times

However nowhere do they enumerate the data they used actually used or their formulas for performing the calculations in order for one to independently perform the same calculations and validate their conclusion.

So it's a bit like the Drake equation for calculating the probability of the presence of extraterrestrial life.  Depending on what factors are used in the equation one may conclude that extraterrestrial life is common or that life on earth is unique.

Since the authors don't reveal their formulas or factors used in their calculations , it doesn't permit one to evaluate whether their conclusion is reasonable or not.  Instead of being transparent about how their calculations where performed they engage is a standard propaganda technique of "appeal to authority" by quoting an MD.
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MtnGoat
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PostTue May 12, 2020 11:28 am 
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Those are valid arguments, yup. The thing is, they also apply to folks at all levels making most if not all of the claims we read about every day. You don't see a lot of them with the details you mention here. Heck appeal to authority is the SOP for most discussions here with respect to source, depending on the poster.

I am not making the argument that this source is the be all end all of sources, I'm saying that they bring up the other side of the harm equation which is not just the virus it's the response. And they do include some references to studies etc. I'm not aware of a wide spread practice of releasing code/calcs for these things, so that's another area where this outfit isn't much different.

As an aside, IMO all publicly paid for code and model used for public policy should be publicly available as standard practice.

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Randito
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PostTue May 12, 2020 11:49 am 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Those are valid arguments, yup. The thing is, they also apply to folks at all levels making most if not all of the claims we read about every day. You don't see a lot of them with the details you mention here. Heck appeal to authority is the SOP for most discussions here with respect to source, depending on the poster.

I am not making the argument that this source is the be all end all of sources, I'm saying that they bring up the other side of the harm equation which is not just the virus it's the response. And they do include some references to studies etc. I'm not aware of a wide spread practice of releasing code/calcs for these things, so that's another area where this outfit isn't much different.

As an aside, IMO all publicly paid for code and model used for public policy should be publicly available as standard practice.

Here is an interesting article on the subject in Forbes

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2020/03/27/how-economists-calculate-the-costs-and-benefits-of-covid-19-lockdowns/#3dc0f1cd6f63

The article provides a significant number of details and discusses how widely varying numbers can obtained based on what values one assigns to various factors.   It doesn't make any conclusions about the overall economic impacts stay at home orders -- but it does provide a decent amount of infomation illustrating the complexity of making these sorts of economic calculations.

FWIW:  Forbes is rated by Media Bias /Fact Check

Quote:
Overall, we rate Forbes Right-Center biased based on story selection that tends to favor the right and the political affiliation of its ownership. We also rate them Mostly Factual in reporting, rather than High due to some misleading or false stories related to climate science.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/forbes/
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PostTue May 12, 2020 1:41 pm 
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Randito wrote:
"...by quoting an MD...."

Who is it this time? The radiologist who cranks out three or four "articles" every day for his whacko "think tank" group?

Oh wait... no... it's either the guy with the PhD in Atmospheric Sciences and Meteorology, or the guy with the PhD in "Operations Research".

Hilarious. lol.gif

More hacks... what a waste of time lol.gif

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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MtnGoat
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PostTue May 12, 2020 2:17 pm 
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Those are arguments? That's the wack.  rolleyes.gif


Meanwhile
Seattle Parks without Parking, Washington Beaches without Beachcombers

Quote:
If you want to drive to a major Seattle park, you will not be able to park there.

And if you are looking forward to a walk on a Washington State ocean beach, forget it.  The beaches are off limits.

And at many parks you will be hectored and bullied in way that is contradictory to the values of a free society.

Why?

Because some public officials believe, with virtually no evidence or basis in science, that these restrictions on outdoor areas are promoting public safety.   These politicians and bureaucrats may mean well, but, in reality, they are harming many of those they wish to assist.  They are also working against the most progressive values of our community, taking actions that are inconsistent with the essential principles of our democracy.

There is minimal risk of coronavirus spread outdoors.  That is science.

This is not speculation or wishful thinking but based on the scientific literature, observational evidence, and fact-based logic. I reviewed some of the literature in my April 18th blog post and there has been more recent research during the past few months. For example, recent lab studies carried out by the U.S. Army’s high-level biosecurity laboratory at Fort Detrick, Md. (see below) found that the virus survived for only 2 minutes on a surface and as an aerosol droplet for only 90 seconds during the summer.  And noted in my earlier blog, there is no documented example of COVID transmission in the outside air and there are many reasons for this, including the effects of solar ultraviolet radiation, the higher relative humidity, and the huge potential for dispersion (and thus low concentrations) in the vast quantity of outside air, enhanced by outdoor wind.

Quote:
What we have here is the threat of collective punishment if a few people "break the rules" created by some misguided elected officials or city/state bureaucrats.   Everyone will suffer if a few kids gather too closely or some of the "unwoken" have an illicit picnic. 


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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Randito
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PostTue May 12, 2020 2:51 pm 
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Hey Goat, since you live in Klickitat county,  why do you care about Seattle parks policy?   It isn't like you are affected by the "If you have to drive a park, it is too far" guideline.

Seems like you are just using the propaganda technique of distraction to avoid responding to posts where weaknesses in your positions have been pointed out.
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MtnGoat
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PostTue May 12, 2020 4:21 pm 
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Many reasons.

One, what happens in the anthill rarely stays there. Two, rational governance is in everyone's best interests, either in my county or another, or another state. Three, it's an good example of overkill regardless of location.

And I am impacted by the drive too far standard, since folks using the same ideals as the Seattle parks closures shut down everything here I wouldn't need to drive to (much), making what would be a 4 min drive to my routine workout hill a non starter. And once I'm in the rig, well, whatever I can reach within use of my usual fuel stop is legit, as on Sat/Sun (lazy trip reports).

I've responded to your post, noted the valid criticisms, read your response, had nothing to add. It is now a board rule nothing else can be discussed until Randito approves of a topic's resolution?

Seems like the frontloading on propaganda is yours, via the well poisoning method. The garden variety 'you don't live in X, so why do you care' thing, well, seen this move in places with more international posters usually (you live in the US, why do you care about X), never seen it pulled in a county to county format. So congrats on that for sure.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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