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neek
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PostSun Apr 19, 2020 11:59 am 
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Moderator note:  original post was removed by the author, quoted below

catsp wrote:
Again, it wasn't the thought that such politicized discussion belongs on this particular site or any other. It was the thought that by at least temporarily providing an outlet for those so inclined to politicize discussions in other threads anyways, there'd be no excuse for infecting other threads. Also, maybe undercut complaints about "censorship" (which, I have to apologize, I always find a little funny to see asserted on a private forum).

As far as your "fixed it for you", how has that worked out so far?

Now imagine if the last couple pages of the "To your/our health (Covid-19 thread)" were over here, instead of there?


Personally I'd love to be able to say something horrible and short-sighted, such as "let's just beef up treatment capacity and then pull out all stops and let things run their course," to see where discussions of such a thought experiment would lead, but I'm afraid in any context other than a closed conversation with close friends, such an attempt would lead to nothing but grief.  And I predict this thread doesn't last beyond page 1.
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Bosterson
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PostSun Apr 19, 2020 12:01 pm 
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I thought inane (or asinine, you choose) political discussion was why Facebook was invented, so why even bother bringing that here? It can't be that hard to just not have political discussions here? I know with all the outdoor areas closed there won't be that much else to talk about right now, but maybe we can all get busy posting cat pictures or something?

catsp wrote:
Most importantly... there is no excuse for infecting any... thread with politics. Warn for first violation, suspend for two, infect with SARS-CoV-2 for the third (or whatever might be deemed appropriate).

up.gif  (fixed it for you)

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zephyr
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PostSun Apr 19, 2020 12:24 pm 
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I wouldn't call this politics necessarily.  But it's troubling to read stories like this.  From a Tweet by David Wallace-Wells:  The White House is intercepting and interrupting the delivery to states of hospitals of necessary medical equipment and PPE. This is a blockade. It is how the union squeezed the confederacy during the civil war. It is criminal.

An article in New York Magazine re-telling the story.  Then the published account in the New England Journal of Medicine

I don't know what to make of this behavior. 'Like watching a suspense movie, but it's real life.  How do we as good citizens, as veterans, as contributing members of society react to something like this?  Very troubling.

~z
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Tom
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PostSun Apr 19, 2020 12:34 pm 
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As long as this thread maintains civility and steers clear of non-COVID politics I leave it open for now pending moderator discussion.  If it devolves it will be shut down.
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MtnGoat
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PostSun Apr 19, 2020 12:35 pm 
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catsp wrote:
Again, it wasn't the thought that such politicized discussion belongs on this particular site or any other. It was the thought that by at least temporarily providing an outlet for those so inclined to politicize discussions in other threads anyways, there'd be no excuse for infecting other threads. Also, maybe undercut complaints about "censorship" (which, I have to apologize, I always find a little funny to see asserted on a private forum).

As far as your "fixed it for you", how has that worked out so far?

Now imagine if the last couple pages of the "To your/our health (Covid-19 thread)" were over here, instead of there?

Censorship does exist on private forums, it's merely legal there.

The issue is, is it defensible if you intend to present a forum with intellectually defensible content. In the cases of personal attacks and such like abuse, I'd say certainly. When it is used to shut down dissent no matter how respectfully posted, I'd say no.

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MtnGoat
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PostSun Apr 19, 2020 12:36 pm 
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Tom wrote:
As long as this thread maintains civility and steers clear of non-COVID politics I leave it open for now pending moderator discussion.  If it devolves it will be shut down.

Thanks for weighing in on that Tom, and the clarity and a little space to discuss.

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MtnGoat
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PostSun Apr 19, 2020 12:37 pm 
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Anne Elk wrote:
That's right, C-path.  I took the bait.  Sorry!  It's contagious.   hockeygrin.gif

There's no bait, only posts you may not agree with.

As we see on this board continually, the pressure to agree with one socially approved narrative is pervasive. Folks claim to want discussion but really mean only discussion they agree with.

The proof is obvious... if not disagreeing is a highest value over personal thoughts and beliefs, they can choose to prove it by placing harmony above their own arguments and choosing to agree with the assertions they don't like.

But this is never chosen because the harmony argument is a cover... for not wanting to see posts they don't like. Discussion does not and has never meant 'only what I already agree with'.

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MtnGoat
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PostSun Apr 19, 2020 12:39 pm 
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Anne Elk wrote:
It's not helpful to the debate when you continue to talk in hypotheticals.  This isn't a "random" disaster; contagious disease experts had well-advertised the statistical likelihood of a pandemic.  As for personal rights, they end where harm to others begins, no?  We're talking disease spread, not curtailing free speech.

"...objections to usage of their kids bodies as vehicles for someone else's agendas..." Come on!  What do you argue when these un-vaxed kids spread measles through their community?

Experts predict statistical likelyhoods of all kinds of disasters. it is impossible to be 'well prepared' for all of them. I meant random in the sense this isn't a volcanic eruption, flood, etc, my apologies for not being clear.

Personal rights end where you violate someone else's. There is no right to be free of risk. Nor to demand everyone else stay home because you think you should. You are not violating someone else's rights merely because you are a risk, and there are few if any cases where you aren't a risk to someone else.

We're doing things as bad as curtailing speech, the chosen responses by the powerful have been ending the right to do buisness, to work, to be outside without a mask in some places, to use resources we paid for, etc.

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MtnGoat
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PostSun Apr 19, 2020 12:40 pm 
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Randito wrote:
That's your ill informed opinion,  but not the law.

That's your ill informed opinion, and I did not claim it was law.

It's sure handy to simply declare an assertion you disagree with ill informed, that way you don't actually have to show it's wrong, simply imply it is..while using a specious argument to do so. There is no objective process of 'being informed' where value judgments turn into something you render objective merely by more 'information'.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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neek
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PostSun Apr 19, 2020 12:41 pm 
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Bosterson wrote:
I thought inane (or asinine, you choose) political discussion was why Facebook was invented, so why even bother bringing that here?

I wasn't aware anything resembling "discussion" occurred on FB, but never been there so I dunno.

Bosterson wrote:
It can't be that hard to just not have political discussions here?

IMO, political discussions are some of the most interesting to be had, especially with those you don't entirely agree with.

Bosterson wrote:
I know with all the outdoor areas closed there won't be that much else to talk about right now, but maybe we can all get busy posting cat pictures or something?

Isn't that what Facebook is for?
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Tom
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PostSun Apr 19, 2020 12:42 pm 
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This is not starting off well. frown.gif
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MtnGoat
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PostSun Apr 19, 2020 12:43 pm 
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Tom wrote:
This is not starting off well. frown.gif

Well, I removed some of my posts from the mainline thread which I am assuming is intended to be medicine only. I hope that's helpful.

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MtnGoat
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PostSun Apr 19, 2020 12:46 pm 
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catsp wrote:
Correct. That's why I find complaints about it sort of amusing.

Why? Just because something is legal doesn't make it right, or defensible, depending on the goal.

catsp wrote:
I respectfully disagree. If I own the site, I am the unquestioned and wholly unapologetic god of what is permitted. If one doesn't like it, one can go elsewhere. (Though I readily acknowledge that, as one who does not own a site, it would irritate the heck out of me.)

Nothing I posted contradicts that. We are not in disagreement that I can see.

If you want an echo chamber instead of actual discussions, you censor with abandon, and you can get that echo chamber. If your actual discussions require agreement, then that's what you have. An echo chamber.

The pressure for that is continual. People claim they don't want an echo chamber, then attack posting stuff they disagree with no matter how carefully within the bounds it is, and even when other threads are started to avoid drift of an initial thread, then they complain about it there.

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MtnGoat
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PostSun Apr 19, 2020 12:53 pm 
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catsp wrote:
Elsewhere it seems that you agree that while it may be the way you would prefer it, it is not in any way an accurate statement of fact.

Of course it is. It is a fact like any other idea is a fact. That is in fact an accurate statement of fact. Thus we see your argument is not correct, because 'in any way' means there is NO truth there. Yet there is. These meanings/details are important.

In the thread about releasing people, for example, you argued my claim was not accurate. Yet it was. Multiple things about the same events can all be true. Not looking at it the way you prefer does not falsify that people were released before their due date, and the details don't change that fact...though they may impact other subsequent arguments.

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PostSun Apr 19, 2020 12:54 pm 
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catsp wrote:
Let me help you out then. Yes, it is. wink.gif

On the article, very interesting. But rather than making the situation about good guys versus bad guys, I see it as indicative of the lack of a cohesive response. As for the feds stepping in, I'd suggest that in a more prefect union the feds would indeed be stepping in, to prevent some of the exact problems the article discusses. In particular, the states having to fight and bid against each other for these crucial supplies.

I prefer the exact opposite. Imposing a titanic One Best Way imposes every flaw within that One Best Way.

That fighting over supplies is going to happen no matter what. It is far better to have it in the open on the market than in an even more corrupt political sphere. Instead of bidding and deals in a market where are all constrained by the same open factors, you get the backroom political gamemanship that such power *always* results in. Trying to evade human nature behind govt processes yields very bad precedent and outcomes on stuff like this.

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