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MtnGoat
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PostWed May 06, 2020 11:24 am 
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Ski wrote:
^ you too, huh?

I made a list in the "politics" thread about masks in stores.

What I see at Safeway: masks on ALL staff members, but maybe only HALF of the customers.

Trader Joes: masks on almost all staff members, and probably 80% of customers.

Harbor Greens: masks on ALL staff members, and probably 80% of customers.

speaks volumes about the clientele education level.
one could speculate about ideology, but it really comes down to education level.

And here it is, in the appropriate thread.

Actual education worth it's salt with respect to values results in some version of..."there are many different viewpoints, yet I value X while recognizing someone else values Y for their own reasons, and we are both educated'.

You demonstrate your version: education = 'agrees with me on value judgments'. And this is why folks of your bent meet such resistance to your 'educational' pedagogies, 'experts', etc. You are demonstrably interested in indoctrination and the only way it survives is monopoly on ideas.

So really, it does come down to ideology. You just don't wish to go there to where reality lives.

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catsp
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PostWed May 06, 2020 11:35 am 
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Once again you appear to exhibit a significant lack of understanding, at least as to me, and if I was to offer a guess, others as well (though certainly not all).

It's not necessarily a dislike for your comments or your position per se. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that many strongly disagree with what appears to be your position. Whether that includes me or not is really beside the point (though I'd guess you understand little of my position).

The issue I have (and again, would guess others do as well) is that you decline to respond to specific questions that are designed to ferret out the actual contours of your position. To respond to specific analogies to see how far your non-specific generalities go. People will pose questions to try to get you down here on the actual ground, but you just want fly over at 35,000 feet and drop leaflets. Others have repeatedly pointed this out.

I get that there probably isn't going to be much mind changing in this forum (though I personally think some does occur). Even so, it's like we're in some junior high school debating contest, where the purpose isn't to exchange thoughts and ideas (common or not), but merely to score points by any means possible. Which may be why it seems you spend much more time trying to attack someone else's position rather than showing any willingness to or interest in defending your own.

It's the difference between spending all your effort trying to show everyone else that they are wrong, even while never stepping up to accept the much more difficult challenge of showing why you are right.

It's certainly the easier way out, and I'd generally consider it discussing/arguing in bad faith.

But I suspect it might also be a matter of fear. No, not the fear you like to so frequently use as some sort of insult to others. (To be fair, you're not the only one that has done that in recent forums.) This is the fear that once pinned down, you will have difficulty, or simply be unable, to actually defend your general position. To show that it broadly holds up, or to show there is no hypocrisy as to you personally. To poorly paraphrase Danny McKnight to make it fit my point, circling above at 35,000 feet an argument may be untouchable, while down in the street it's indefensible.
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MtnGoat
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PostWed May 06, 2020 11:57 am 
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Of course I have a significant lack of understanding with respect to anyone who isn't myself...just like everyone. This is part of why discussion is so valuable.

Declaring that disagreement over value judgments shows some lack of understanding of facts doesn't even pass first base on any kind of scale, because the two have no relationship. There is no transfer function. It functions as a way to imply that one's value judgments somehow emerge from facts and it's unquestionable, so somehow the other person must not know the facts correctly or at all. I'm not sure you've done this per se, but it's a constant undercurrent everywhere now. Disagreement over value cast as not understanding facts.

The continually changing of the thread title betrays a mindset which appears to be hostile at best to one particular poster, me, since the title changes orbit comments made against my arguments in the thread. I find it flattering. It seems disingenous to claim it's not about disagreement with my comments when the thread title not only changes, but it's change is always based on accusations which do not favor my argument. In short, it's clear editorial bias...which there's nothing wrong with, it is your thread.

Some questions I do ignore, and then I explain why as to Randito. His arguments tended to go in the direction of 'because it's so', rather than 'why', which is my interest because that is where changes start. I tire of rationalizations for why because of things like 'it's legal' or 'it's not legal'. That isn't enough. Law is not morality, morality drives law, or it should, and the farther they diverge the worse law becomes.

I'm perfectly willing to drop to ground level on some issues if they interest me, because of course this is what drives everyone's responses..what they find interesting about a topic, or responses to it.

I plead not guilty to not explaining my own reasoning. I am *continually* criticized for posts that are not soundbites as I explain my reasoning. A poster today used the 'blah blah' replacement for arguments. You have others explicitly arguing they won't read the posts because they are too long, and what they are too long from...is ideas explaining my argument!

I spend a huge proportion of my posts explaining exactly why I think they are right. I think this criticism is completely, totally unfounded. I engage more at more depth and go longer than darn near anyone here. NONE of the questions I ask are rhetoricals, yet they are rarely answered. I don't do rhetorical, and questions other folks don't want to answer because of what it exposes does not turn a question rhetorical.

There's another huge issue here as well..you are inverting logic. Nothing is ever proven right. What occurs is that a contention is not proven wrong, because proving something wrong is all that can actually occur. Even the claim of 'proving something right' is based upon this fact and is casual shorthand for the more complicated reality of logic, which is that proving something false is all there is.

Fear: I am not insulting fear. I am commenting upon it's impact on reasoning and it's application to other people's actions. Fear is a perfectly valid emotion and it is not an attack. It is however a powerful negative influence on good judgment.

Thanks for the details in any event. If you think I think I cannot defend my arguments and don't use enough detail, I suggest you need to reread the details in my responses and reconsider why you think that. I'd also appreciate your thoughts on just how I can both satisfy the folks who only want three sentence answers and those who want the detail you seek. I am not a soundbite guy.

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catsp
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PostWed May 06, 2020 12:01 pm 
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"The moral justification is simple..everyone owns the right to judge risks and act accordingly for themselves."

Should there be speed limits?
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MtnGoat
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PostWed May 06, 2020 12:02 pm 
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Anndd once again a title change which is not indicative of impartiality or goodwill.

A long post featuring what appear to be reasonable arguments and questions..., followed by a yet another 'attack title' change.

These two things are not consistent with each other, from 35000 feet, or at ground level.

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MtnGoat
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PostWed May 06, 2020 12:03 pm 
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Dr. Frankenstein wrote:
"The moral justification is simple..everyone owns the right to judge risks and act accordingly for themselves."

Should there be speed limits?

Ideally no. Practically, I am enough of a socialist to go along with such a compromise.

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Bosterson
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PostWed May 06, 2020 12:11 pm 
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Dr. Frankenstein wrote:
The issue I have (and again, would guess others do as well) is that you decline to respond to specific questions that are designed to ferret out the actual contours of your position. To respond to specific analogies to see how far your non-specific generalities go. People will pose questions to try to get you down here on the actual ground, but you just want fly over at 35,000 feet and drop leaflets. Others have repeatedly pointed this out.

I get that there probably isn't going to be much mind changing in this forum (though I personally think some does occur). Even so, it's like we're in some junior high school debating contest, where the purpose isn't to exchange thoughts and ideas (common or not), but merely to score points by any means possible. Which may be why it seems you spend much more time trying to attack someone else's position rather than showing any willingness to or interest in defending your own.

It's the difference between spending all your effort trying to show everyone else that they are wrong, even while never stepping up to accept the much more difficult challenge of showing why you are right.

up.gif Exactly.

When one person is posting 3 times for every 1 post by anyone else in the topic, endlessly contending in generalities that everyone else is wrong, not much useful "community discussion" is happening.

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Cyclopath
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PostWed May 06, 2020 12:19 pm 
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fourteen410 wrote:
Getting along shouldn't be the primary goal of a discussion. The goal is to hear different opinions and sometimes even challenge your own. Echo chambers may feel good, but they are blinding. I don't often agree with MtnGoat, but I don't mind having an opposing POV.

On a different note, what's with the passive aggressive comments about ignoring people lately? If you're going to ignore someone, great - not sure why it has to be announced.

I agree it's wise to expose yourself to alternative viewpoints.  It's also wise to use common sense and not allow yourself to be manipulated.  A lot of what's getting posted here is both obvious BS, and a distraction from the real issues.

I haven't put MG on ignore, so I can only guess why people are posting about it.  I assume they're saying "don't feed the troll."  It's pretty clear the guy isn't here to have a conversation about the reality this thread was set up to discuss, he's here to push a fringe political ideology and to feed on negativity.  I think over the years a number of people have seen him posting in bad faith and got tired of it.
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MtnGoat
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PostWed May 06, 2020 12:20 pm 
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Ah, so there is some kind of limit on how much one can respond? There's a limit to which posts one can answer? Choose one, ignore the rest?

Generalities, hm. The *specifics* of mask function and how you can protect yourself isn't a specific? The *specifics* of how science has no value judgements is not specific enough? The *specifics* of how value judgements are not science, isn't specfic enough?

I question the claim about specifics.

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catsp
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PostWed May 06, 2020 12:22 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Anndd once again a title change which is not indicative of impartiality or goodwill.

To be clear, I certainly don't claim impartiality. But as for the thread title changes, the first one was an expression of frustration, but now they are mostly for my own childish self-amusement. wink.gif

MtnGoat wrote:
Dr. Frankenstein wrote:
"The moral justification is simple..everyone owns the right to judge risks and act accordingly for themselves."

Should there be speed limits?

Ideally no. Practically, I am enough of a socialist to go along with such a compromise.

Now I know you will continue to beat your usual much more generalized drum going forward, but for me your succinct response (thank you) just brought your argument crashing to the ground, aflame in a field of hypocrisy.
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PostWed May 06, 2020 12:25 pm 
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MtnGoat wrote:
Dr. Frankenstein wrote:
"The moral justification is simple..everyone owns the right to judge risks and act accordingly for themselves."

Should there be speed limits?

Ideally no. Practically, I am enough of a socialist to go along with such a compromise.

Translation -- MtnGoat doesn't want some dumbfuck to drive drunk and slam into him at 120mph.   

Since MtnGoat lives in Lyle in Klickatat county which has had a total of 17 COVID-19 confirmed cases and 3 deaths, It sounds like he has decided "I shouldn't have to follow the same rules as the 'anthills' (his term) of Seattle, Portland, NYC, etc".   If he was willing to make such an argument, perhaps there would be more agreement.   However he hasn't made such an argument, and seems to prefer to make the more general libertarian argument "The government has no business telling me what to do" -- which is a position that very few folks agree with.
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MtnGoat
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PostWed May 06, 2020 12:30 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
I agree it's wise to expose yourself to alternative viewpoints.  It's also wise to use common sense and not allow yourself to be manipulated.  A lot of what's getting posted here is both obvious BS, and a distraction from the real issues.

I haven't put MG on ignore, so I can only guess why people are posting about it.  I assume they're saying "don't feed the troll."  It's pretty clear the guy isn't here to have a conversation about the reality this thread was set up to discuss, he's here to push a fringe political ideology and to feed on negativity.  I think over the years a number of people have seen him posting in bad faith and got tired of it.

Since when are the issues 'real' ....because you define them as so, for everyone else?
Why isn't real defined as what people talk about and choose as real?
Why do you simply get to declare what is BS and have that treated as the obvious correct thing without defense or reason?
Why do you get to unilaterally define what is a 'distraction' because it doesn't follow your preferred path? What about what other people want to discuss, and are willing to discuss?

These are not rhetorical questions, I don't do rhetorical. I question your completely arbitrary, arrogant claims about what a conversation is 'set up' to to do, or what is BS because you don't want to deal with it.

It's pretty clear that the only 'conversation' you'll define as acceptable is one that follows what you agree with, about a 'reality' which only includes same.

As for the last bit, the worst bad faith is claiming to be interested in discussion but then consistently arguing against folks posting disagreement. Especially if they won't back down and won't be quiet when impugned.

Once again, I ask anyone here to provide the actual, legitimate as they see it, path to posting ideas they disagree with, in detail and as often as disagreement occurs. Not one of you has done so.

You want an echo chamber.

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MtnGoat
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PostWed May 06, 2020 12:31 pm 
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Dr. Frankenstein wrote:
To be clear, I certainly don't claim impartiality. But as for the thread title changes, the first one was an expression of frustration, but now they are mostly for my own childish self-amusement. wink.gif

Dr. Frankenstein wrote:
Now I know you will continue to beat your usual much more generalized drum going forward, but for me your succinct response (thank you) just brought your argument crashing to the ground, aflame in a field of hypocrisy.

everyone beats a generalized drum. it's called the basis of their thinking. You see it in every post from everyone in here.

yet you only critique it in mine.

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MtnGoat
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PostWed May 06, 2020 12:35 pm 
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Randito wrote:
Translation -- MtnGoat doesn't want some dumbfuck to drive drunk and slam into him at 120mph.   

Since MtnGoat lives in Lyle in Klickatat county which has had a total of 17 COVID-19 confirmed cases and 3 deaths, It sounds like he has decided "I shouldn't have to follow the same rules as the 'anthills' (his term) of Seattle, Portland, NYC, etc".   If he was willing to make such an argument, perhaps there would be more agreement.   However he hasn't made such an argument, and seems to prefer to make the more general libertarian argument "The government has no business telling me what to do" -- which is a position that very few folks agree with.

Yup, that is correct. I am perfectly willing to make that argument. I would have thought it was self evident that One Size Fits all is not appropriate in cases like this, but I guess the obvious must be stated, then of course I can take heat for that.  rolleyes.gif

Side note: How many people agree with something is irrelevant to morality. It is only relevant in the use of force, and the two are opposites anyway.

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PostWed May 06, 2020 12:35 pm 
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Going to lock this for now pending moderator discussion.  May reopen later.
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