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Damian
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PostFri May 22, 2020 9:24 am 
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How about some recommendations for trails that could benefit from adoption.  I'll offer the route from Image to Canyon Lk.  A relatively easy project but badly needing a few sections of brushwork.  It's also in God's country.
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Malachai Constant
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PostFri May 22, 2020 9:32 am 
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Agreed about Canyon Lake which would also take some pressure off Image which gets mobbed in the summer.  up.gif  up.gif

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Riverside Laker
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PostFri May 22, 2020 10:13 am 
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Yup, Canyon lake would be a good project. Only problem is the commute with heavy tools.
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FiresideChats
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PostFri May 22, 2020 10:22 am 
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Interesting debate and one I've thought about. Does anyone have an efficiency comparison between xcut and chainsaws? I'm a teacher, not a logger...

I hope to pitch in on Gamma this summer. I know there has been enthusiasm on other threads for the Upper Suiattle.
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Riverside Laker
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PostFri May 22, 2020 11:23 am 
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Ooh, Gamma is a very worthy project. Tons of jackstraw that must be 30+ years old, so will be dry and perhaps hard to saw.
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treeswarper
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PostFri May 22, 2020 11:28 am 
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Logbear wrote:
Clearing the devils windstorm.

Crosscut saws:  222 miles of trail cleared
Chainsaw:  67 miles of trail cleared.

There were no lawsuits or threat of lawsuits related to this work.
Friends of the Inyo is a local group that is very active in protecting the wilderness area.  They contributed about $50,000 to the work effort.

The USFS did this the right way.


http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5370647.pdf

That's the one!  Thanks.

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treeswarper
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PostFri May 22, 2020 11:49 am 
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FiresideChats wrote:
Interesting debate and one I've thought about. Does anyone have an efficiency comparison between xcut and chainsaws? I'm a teacher, not a logger...

I hope to pitch in on Gamma this summer. I know there has been enthusiasm on other threads for the Upper Suiattle.

I think they did a bit of that on the Inyo project.

Real world?  Both have disadvantages and advantages. 

Crosscut saw is slower but still pretty quick when used by people who know how.    What makes me uncomfortable about using one is the fear of dulling the teeth by hitting the ground or a rock or??  They take skill to sharpen.  I have found myself constantly thinking, if I had my Barbie Saw, I'd be done cutting this by now, but I am not a crosscut expert and never will be.  Crosscuts are easier to pack in and don't require extra chains, fuel, bar oil, etc.
They do need wedges, axes, perhaps an underbuck tool, and lubricant.   

Chainsaws?  They are fast when used by people who know how.  Very fast.  For me, I can file a chain easily out in the woods if I dull the chain.  I actually feel safer using a chainsaw because I can gun the motor and boost the power in a tight spot.  You spend less time which might equal less hazardous time at what your are cutting. 

You need horses or mules to do much on non motorized trails.   You need enough fuel, bar oil, spare chains, chaps, wedges, earplugs, eye protection, etc. to support the work.  You need people who won't cut off their leg to run it. 

Both saws take training and certification to operate officially.  There are different levels of certification.  I was A (beginner) certified on the crosscut and B certified on a chainsaw.  B chainsaw certification at that time meant two different things.  I could buck up to 24 inches diameter according to the Forest Service, or I could buck anything with the PCTA.  Note I am talking bucking.  That's all that was allowed on trails--no falling.

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FiresideChats
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PostFri May 22, 2020 1:29 pm 
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Yes, it makes sense that 5 professional timber beasts with a pack string for gear would put a xcut team of 5 in the shade. The novice level of the workforce, as you note, seems the major factor in efficiency. I pulled a long saw exactly once when I stumbled on a work party on Downey and pitched in on a big log. Really enjoyed it and think I could have made myself immediately useful. The times I've operated a chainsaw have always felt like near death experiences, although I enjoy sharpening them, which is helpful when you are as unskilled as I am.
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Kim Brown
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PostFri May 22, 2020 1:37 pm 
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Agencies & orgs get more volunteers with the promise of running a cross cut. Often, though it might be slower time and again, and create bigger mess in the woods preparing the site for a project - in the long run, it becomes beneficial in the way of more returning volunteers racking up more hours for the agency (which help the agency obtain grant money) and returning volunteers for them and for partner organizations that rely on them, their money, and their will\lingness to help out with advocacy.

Just looking at it from a different perspective.

I've helped out a couple days on a chainsaw project. Too noisy and smelly - I couldn't hear the birds or smell the vegetation. Well and good if that's your line of work, or you have a particular time-driven goal, but for a volunteer out in the mountains - I didn't care for it.

But back to abandoned trails ...I have a couple of favorites, but I kinda like them the way they are.

I think perhaps working on abandoned road approaches that are not pleasant walks. Ugh, how awful. So brushy, buggy, and hot.  N Fk Skymomish closed road leading to the old trail head would be good.

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treeswarper
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PostFri May 22, 2020 3:44 pm 
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The sekrit to working on roads is to start at the butt crack of dawn and quit when it gets hot and buggy.

That brings to mind another bad about chainsaws--fire restrictions.  You have to be familiar with the industrial fire precaution class.  Sometimes you have to quit at 1pm and usually, in August, might not be able to run one at all.

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Ski
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PostFri May 22, 2020 3:54 pm 
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Kim wrote:
"Agencies & orgs get more volunteers with the promise of running a cross cut....."

Excellent points you raise, and all of them valid.

Yes, you can get a hell of a lot of wood cut in a day with a good saw and a sharp chain, but long after the sun goes down your arms will still be vibrating and you'll be mostly deaf.
I really liked that old Jonsereds but I cut way more cords with a Stihl MS390.  wink.gif
As I noted, I was never S212 certified so the work I did at ONP was all by hand, which does have its advantages.

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Roy Jensen
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PostFri May 22, 2020 5:05 pm 
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On the hiking trails in the North Cascades there are apparently more logs that need cutting than available saws.  This is based on my first hand observations.  I don't care how they get cut, I just wish they would get cut.  I am sometimes jealous because trails frequented by motor bikes, mountain bikes or even most horse trails always seem to be clear of logs.   Can't the hiking community do do better?
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Damian
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PostFri May 22, 2020 7:04 pm 
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Riverside Laker wrote:
Yup, Canyon lake would be a good project. Only problem is the commute with heavy tools.

No heavy tools needed to improve the route from Image to Canyon.  Light saw and/or loppers.  And the portions that need this are relatively short.
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Marc-Aurčle Fortin
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PostFri May 22, 2020 7:10 pm 
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Kim Brown wrote:
I haven't read this 2015 updated version of "Keeping It Wild," but it's likely the same as the 2012 version;it defines what wilderness character is, and gives guidance on how to monitor and manage for wilderness.

Kim, I was fascinated to look at Keeping It Wild. I have long wondered where the refrain about "humility and restraint," the mantra so often recited by Wilderness purists, comes from. It's in the document and I wonder if it's the source for it.

Let's parse the Forest Service's definition of Wilderness character:

"Wilderness character is a holistic concept based on the interaction of

(1) biophysical environments primarily free from modern human manipulation and impact,

(2) personal experiences in natural environments relatively free from the encumbrances and signs of modern society, and

(3) symbolic meanings of humility, restraint, and interdependence that inspire human connection with nature.

Taken together, these tangible and intangible values define wilderness character and distinguish wilderness from all other lands." (P. 7.)

Items 1 and 2 make sense. Item 3, however, constitutes what philosophers and rhetoricians call a category error. It is a major conceptual mistake.

Specifically, item 3 departs from the character of Wilderness to dictate a particular, quasi-religious concept of how to visit Wilderness properly, namely with "humility" and "restraint."

As a religious or moral precept, that's fine. But it's completely off the mark as a basis for public policy. Is a ranger supposed to stand at a Wilderness boundary and instruct visitors on the required mindset for venturing further? ("From now on, no laughing, no loud talking; only reverential contemplation is permitted.") Of course not. But if not, then what does item 3 even mean in terms of land management?

Further along (p. 8), the document has the topic heading "Comply with law," meaning the Wilderness Act of 1964, but it picks and chooses what it likes in the Act. It overlooks that the Act calls repeatedly for making recreational opportunities available (for example, "wilderness areas shall be devoted to the public purposes of recreational, scenic, scientific, educational, conservation, and historical use," section 4(b)) and instead only mentions "the preservation of ... wilderness character" as the Forest Service chooses to define it.

In my lifetime, the Forest Service is unlikely to reevaluate these errors, let alone correct them. And I may not convince many readers here. But if I can get people to think a bit about easily digested assumptions and their sources, I hope to have accomplished something.
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Ski
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PostFri May 22, 2020 9:25 pm 
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Marc-Aurčle Fortin wrote:
"... picks and chooses what it likes in the Act...."

Take comfort in knowing that it's not exclusive to the USFS.
The National Park Service (at least at Olympic National Park) has inserted the same sort of horseshit into planning documents, and although challenged on them, blithely proceeds on, as though its own interpretation of the provisions of the Wilderness Act of 1964 were passed down from God himself.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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