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Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9513 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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 Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:12 pm |
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| Schroder wrote: | | I think the pullouts should be blocked with Jersey barriers |
A practical solution with IMHO the highest probability of success.
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rossb
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Joined: 23 Sep 2002
Posts: 1679 | TRs | Pics
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rossb
Member
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Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:37 pm |
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| Kim Brown wrote: | | I don't know that the USFS would deal with a parking lot; that would mean the falls are a recreation site - something they'd have to patrol and maintain. |
Yep. It means a different mindset. It means admitting that this place is actually popular. It means facing reality.
| Kim Brown wrote: | | They'd have to study it, probably do a public process. |
Oh yeah. No question. There would be the whole big process, that would likely take years.
| Kim Brown wrote: | | And a parking lot next to an active train track - not sure they'd want to set themselves up for any kind of liability. |
Um, this is a government agency. They aren't concerned about liability. Besides, this isn't "right next to the railroad tracks", it is simply between the highway and the railroad tracks. Go ahead and measure it -- there is plenty of room. It is worth noting that the road to the trailhead for Barclay Lakes crosses the railroad tracks -- this won't.
| Kim Brown wrote: | | They're not liable for the attraction of the falls because - they're not an official recreation site. It's a place in the river. Sorta like like off trail hikes. |
Yeah, but that's BS. First of all, the liability issue is moot. This is the federal government. It is extremely difficult to sue the federal government (they basically have to agree to be sued). Furthermore, look at the situation now. They could be sued right now, for negligence (if it wasn't so hard to sue the federal government). This is the official sign, at the official trailhead: https://goo.gl/maps/BFC4CVDniFZWc6ZA8. I can't read all the warning, but it sure looks like it is OK to go down to the river. It definitely looks open (holy cow, they have trash cans and everything). Oh wait. Scroll to the right (https://goo.gl/maps/5SSxfhFyGb95tZth6). Right next to a sign that says "Park Hours", there is a sign that says "River Closed" above a sign that says "Warning, Dangerous Falls". So which is it? It isn't clear to me. Oh, and what if -- like dozens if not hundreds of other travelers -- I approach the falls from a slightly different angle. This seems like a pretty easy case for a lawyer to win -- if it wasn't so hard to sue the government.
The point is, this has nothing to do with liability. It has everything to do with the Forest Service having other priorities. They don't want to manage dangerous areas like this any more than they want to manage Big Four. But they should. That means adding a big parking lot, and adding a bunch of additional signs and living with the fact that some people will do idiotic things. The current situation is untenable. The cat is out of the bag. We might wonder why all these people are attracted to the river (for the same reason we wonder why people find Mailbox Peak attractive) but it is clear they do, and the various government agencies should do something about it.
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timberghost
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Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 1332 | TRs | Pics
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The USFS is not going to allow this to be a recreation area. You think they are going to put a honey pot or 2 down there? It smells like a cat box there with litter thrown in the river. The USFS. Is not about to put waste cans down there and have to empty them every 2 hours. They will shut this down just like the ice caves because it's a liability issue. There is a half dozen accidents there a year. They won't be putting a life guard to protect the ones that can't take of theirselves.
I came thru again 2 hours ago with idiots parked way over the white line. One car was stopped in the road unloading 2 cases of budweiser. Now if you notice the average of people there is under 20. It's a gathering spot for minors. I saw a group of 10 or so walking down the tracks which is a federal offense. You couldn't build a parking lot or garage large enough to handle the cars parked from the railroad over pass to Barclay cr that I saw today.
In a month and a half there won't be a hand full of cars there on given weekend and it will be forgotten. That is unless that's when the cement barriers are installed. Then you will have to deal with snow removal in the area. Speed will not be reduced to pacify a short summer occupancy.
Think about it the writing is on the wall with last week's installing of the no parking next 2 miles reiter boards!!
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Nancyann
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Joined: 28 Jul 2013
Posts: 2319 | TRs | Pics
Location: Sultan Basin |
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Nancyann
Member
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Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:02 pm |
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We went by there about 4:30pm today and there were three motorcycle cops and one State Patrol writing tickets. It looks like they are trying to at the very least get the cars ticketed that are parked halfway out in Highway 2, which there were a lot of, but an amazing amount of people were casually wandering around in the middle of the state highway acting like they were going to a picnic at Greenlake. The genie is out of the bottle and it is going to be tough to put it back in. At least until fall, when it’s cold and rainy and it becomes hard to party when you are getting hypothermic.
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MyFootHurts
Huge Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 912 | TRs | Pics
Location: Kekistan |
Imagine all the peepee poopoo in the water downstream from all those drunk smelly people.
And then with the occasional dead body floating by it must be like the Ganges.
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Bedivere
Why Do Witches Burn?
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 7464 | TRs | Pics
Location: The Hermitage |
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Bedivere
Why Do Witches Burn?
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Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:10 pm |
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| MyFootHurts wrote: | |
Imagine all the peepee poopoo in the water downstream from all those drunk smelly people.
And then with the occasional dead body floating by it must be like the Ganges. |
And with videos as boring as that one, how can you resist?
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Sky Hiker
Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2007
Posts: 1469 | TRs | Pics
Location: outside |
Well its good to hear that LEO were at least making a presence ticketing violators. When I came thru there was cars parked on the white line on the curve. A semi was going thru east and had to move over the yellow line causing the car in front of me to almost stop due to a crowd walking along the highway. Its only a matter of time before some pedestrian gets hit and not someone drowning or having a fender bender. Lots of masks being worn, NOT.
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ale_capone
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Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 720 | TRs | Pics
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Heh. Been following along, but avoiding posting. I like eagle falls, but not how it is now. Its ten minutes from home, and a nice place to take the dog for a swim after dinner. We usually go late summer into fall.
Something needs to be done, but I'm not sure what.
Reason for posting;
Today I worked in renton with a coworker I've never met. Went through the where do you live bit. They where from way south of there. Didnt think they would even know where goldbar was. "Oh yeah, I was there 2 weeks ago. You ever hear of eagle falls?".. i had to ask how they heard. I turns out this is indeed a tik tok sensation. Didnt know this was a thing. I only use tik tok to learn new dance moves.
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rossb
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Joined: 23 Sep 2002
Posts: 1679 | TRs | Pics
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rossb
Member
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Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:15 am |
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| timberghost wrote: | | They will shut this down just like the ice caves because it's a liability issue. |
The Big Four parking lot is still open. This has nothing to do with liability. What is it with Americans that they think every decision is based on the fear of being sued? As I wrote before, it is extremely difficult to sue the U. S. government for damages. You can easily sue them to stop a project, but you can't easily sue them to get money. The Forest Service isn't afraid of being sued for an accident. They simply don't like it when people die or need to be rescued (imagine that). That is their only motivation for putting up signs at Big Four or at those falls. The bridge and Big Four, on the other hand, needs to be repaired, and that will cost a bunch of money (and of course, require further study).
The situation is quite analogous. There are lots of people who like to hike to Big Four just because it is an easy, pretty hike. Most don't go into the cave. The hike is popular enough that even with the bridge out, people walk across the river and onto the trail (you can see trip reports on WTA from this year, and the water is still pretty high -- wait until August). Likewise, there are likely lots and lots of people who go to the falls and enjoy them responsibly. Many of them just want to hang out in a cool place and watch the water flow down. They dip their feet in the water, or find a calm place and do a little wading.
Oh, and of course they won't put a toilet down there. To the best of my knowledge, there is no toilet at Big Four either.
The point is, I just don't see how you can stop people from going down there long term. You can (and should) ticket people, but that will just result in an inevitable ebb and flow of people in various places along the highway. You need to give them an alternative place to park, otherwise, this mess will continue, in one form or another.
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Kim Brown
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts: 6899 | TRs | Pics
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Of course there is a toilet at Big Four. There's been one for decades that I know of.
People do sue the USFS. And the USFS does not like to be sued.
It is extremely costly, they can't defend themselves (all they can do is answer), it takes a lot of staff resources, and it's bad for publicity.
But no, they won't shut it down; there's nothing to shut down. It's public land.
| timberghost wrote: | | They will shut this down just like the ice caves because it's a liability issue |
No, they never closed Big Four; they closed the bridge ,temporarily, while they made assessments about what to do about the area - this kept out most people. But the land surrounding the bridge, the river, and the ice caves and environs, was open for visitation if you could get there. You could (and still can) even go inside the caves without legal repercussion. It's not illegal. It's not smart, nor is it suggested - but it's not illegal
I think this is on WSDOT, not the USFS. And even then, after WSDOT does everything it can, people will still find a way, and it will most likely be an annoying way - to get to the falls.
I could be wrong, but....the USFS can't help there's a great swimmin' hole in a river right next to the highway.
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rossb
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Joined: 23 Sep 2002
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rossb
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Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:10 am |
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Speaking of videos, here is one from a few years ago: https://vimeo.com/187279868. I agree with all of their points and suggestions, although I'm not sure I would make it my top priority.
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rossb
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Joined: 23 Sep 2002
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rossb
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Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:44 am |
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| Kim Brown wrote: | | I think this is on WSDOT, not the USFS. And even then, after WSDOT does everything it can, people will still find a way, and it will most likely be an annoying way - to get to the falls. |
I think it is on both, as well as the county. USFS owns the land next to the falls. They also own land on the other side of the highway, the only place where you could put up a parking lot. (Land further up the road on the water side is privately owned).
There is no reason why they couldn't add a parking lot there. It would cost money, but it would be a lot better. They could then charge a fee (a FS pass at a minimum) as was suggested in that other video.
WSDOT can tow people -- and will apparently -- but that takes some effort. It is much simpler to give out tickets, and Snohomish county should do that (not many people are parked as far as King County, if any).
There will be a cat and mouse game -- people will find a way to access the river (as you wrote).
What I'm saying is that until there is a legal, sensible way to access the river, people will continue to break the law to get there. It still means you need to prevent parking along the highway, but very few people will park there if there is a better, legal way to park. It is not a lot different than various places, where they've added new parking lots, or overflow parking. For example with Lake 22, the overflow parking requires a longer walk than along the highway. As a result, they've added lots of "No Parking" signs along there. People just keep driving, and use the overflow/picnic area.
I'm up for ticketing, but it isn't a long term answer, and it does nothing to actually clean up the area. Build a lot, charge for parking, clean it up. That's what I would do.
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rossb
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Joined: 23 Sep 2002
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rossb
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Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:01 am |
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For what its worth, I created a TikToc account (I never thought I would say that) to try and warn fans of the area about upcoming tickets and towing. It was easy to find lots of videos of the falls (similar to the one linked to earlier). While I could read the comments, I couldn't figure out how to add one. It isn't clear how to spread the message, even though it is very simple. To quote the headline from the article: WSP will start towing illegally parked cars on Highway 2 near Eagle Falls.
Anyone who is more savvy with social media (especially TikTok) could do a lot of people a big favor by getting the word out. I guess a lot of young people speak only in video, so maybe a video showing a car being towed will work.
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rossb
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Joined: 23 Sep 2002
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rossb
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Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:08 am |
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| Kim Brown wrote: | | Of course there is a toilet at Big Four. |
OK, I stand corrected. I thought the only toilets were by the picnic area (which is by the parking lot). I didn't realize there was a toilet by the ice caves.
In the case of this waterfall, they could just add a few Honey Buckets where the existing parking area is (and otherwise close it). That is very easy to access from the falls. It is also very easy to service. You would also add one (perhaps more permanent) toilet by the actual parking lot (to justify the parking pass).
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timberghost
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Joined: 06 Dec 2011
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There are some utube videos out there also. Probably wouldn't hurt to warn them there.
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