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rossb
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rossb
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PostMon Jul 27, 2020 9:20 am 
I think the only long term answer is for the Forest Service to build a new parking lot. I think the best bet is the little wedge between the highway and the railroad tracks, just north of the falls. According to the Snohomish County maps, this is all Forest Service land. The little wedge looks fairly flat. At roughly here, you would have a perpendicular logging road that immediately turned north. This would cost some money, but shouldn't be horribly expensive. While the trees in the area aren't really big, it is possible some of the money could be made back with a small timber sale in the area (might as well log everything between the highway and the railroad tracks). You would have plenty of room for a big parking lot. Forest Service Passes would be required. There would be a path leading to a crosswalk about where the existing official parking is. The speed limit would be dropped to 30 MPH through that section, with warning signs about pedestrians crossing. You would close the existing parking lot, and mark it for emergency vehicles only. Violators would be towed. You would also add signs along the highway, while aggressively ticketing. Traffic would still be a mess. In the morning there would be backups as people wait to turn left, into the parking lot. In both the morning and afternoon there would be plenty of people walking across the street. But there would be no U-Turns, or cars parked along the highway. Emergency vehicles could get into the area without as much trouble and be able to park without blocking the road. Overall it would be a lot safer, and traffic would move more smoothly. Unfortunately, this wouldn't happen for years, if ever.

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rossb
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PostMon Jul 27, 2020 9:43 am 
Randito wrote:
Yes, now the horrific consequences to the general public is that their travel to and other recreational sites along US2 will be slightly inconvenienced by having to more slowly than 10 over.
I suggest you read the comments again. Traffic was stopped for hours. I mean literally not moving. I stopped the car, got out, and started chatting with another driver. She said it wasn't moving earlier either. She sat in a line for a couple hours, then decided to turn around and kill some time in Skykomish. So at least twice that day there were huge delays. According to news reports (as well as comments made by others), the same thing happened the following day. This is not a slowdown, this is a complete shutdown. It isn't hard to figure out why after reading the comment thread and thinking about it. Cars are parked along the highway. Emergency vehicles come through. Not only does it take them a long time to get there, but there is nowhere for them to go. They park in the lane. This means that cars can't go eastbound. Traffic is stopped that direction for a long time. Then traffic cops come. Again, it takes them a long time to get there, since there is no way for cars to get over to the side. Eventually they get there, and park behind the rescue team. They then block traffic both directions, so that more emergency crew can get there. That is probably when I arrived, because traffic wasn't moving either direction while I had my chat. This went on for about 15 minutes, maybe longer. Eventually we saw traffic moving eastbound, and got into our cars. There were letting people go each direction (one by one). I was near the front, so I was lucky. I probably waited a total of about a half hour, but once traffic started moving, I was past the area without stopping. Folks ten minutes behind me probably had to endure stop and go traffic for quite some time (along with a long period of nobody moving). Again, this wasn't the first time this happened that day, and it happened at least twice the next day. This is more than a traffic inconvenience. It is dangerous. Rescuers are delayed because of the cars parked along the highway. There is a very big risk of pedestrian accidents along the highway as well (especially as things clear out). Again, it isn't hard to figure out the dangers, if you just think about it. Someone arrives late, and parks along the highway, close to the blind curve. They hang out a long time -- long enough for the crowds to dwindle. There is no backup or heavy traffic in the area. Someone comes around the turn too fast, and you have an accident.

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Malachai Constant
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PostMon Jul 27, 2020 10:05 am 
I still can’t understand the big attraction. I have known about this place for 30 years or so and always thought of it as kind of meh. Herd mentality I guess.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Anne Elk
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PostMon Jul 27, 2020 10:09 am 
Thanks for posting all those map and street view links, Ross. I haven't been up that way in years. I did notice on the street view that the signs on the trees and on the board (ones big enough to read) say "river closed to travel" and "no swimming". The F/S & WSDOT seem to be of two minds around what they want to be happening, or are willing to enforce. In re the parking lot idea, you just gotta know that even if they constructed it, it would probably do little to end the problem as the lot would quickly fill, and people would start parking on the road again. We see this at other popular trails. Iwonder when this site started getting so popular/advertised - the social media era?

"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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Randito
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PostMon Jul 27, 2020 1:04 pm 
rossb wrote:
I think the only long term answer is for the Forest Service to build a new parking lot
Given that there are a lot of accidents from risky/ignorant behavior in a hazardous section of river that seems a poor use of forest circus funds. A few weeks of aggressive ticketing and towing of illegally parked vehicles should get the word out on social media that it's no fun anymore. But as I said earlier the Snohomish County Sheriff and the WSP don't seem to care about this problem. Probably too much money to be made by Monroe to Index businesses to consider priority enforcement for a safety and traffic issue.

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rossb
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PostMon Jul 27, 2020 1:09 pm 
Anne Elk wrote:
In re the parking lot idea, you just gotta know that even if they constructed it, it would probably do little to end the problem as the lot would quickly fill, and people would start parking on the road again.
Then make the parking lot even bigger. The biggest trailhead parking lot I know of is Snow Lake (I would appreciate knowing of a bigger one). This could, quite easily, be twice as big. That would be overkill, obviously. While this gets a lot of people, there is no way it comes close to the crowds at Snow Lake. Right now all of the parking is linear. It goes out for a really long distance for that reason. But it doesn't stretch to Baring, or Heybrook. A parking lot that is say, 8 rows deep could handle way more people than are parked along the highway now. Even with added demand (more people doing this because it is now "official") you aren't going to have that many people. I agree with you about the opinion of the Forest Service. They are trying to have it both ways. Officially it is closed. But actually closing it extremely difficult. This was the case during the pandemic, as everyone noted. It was almost passive aggressive closing. They closed the parking lot, but made no effort to prevent people from actually visiting the Forest Service lands. That is because it extremely difficult (legally) to close it down. You also have an enforcement issue. You could assign a Forest Service ranger to basically turn everyone back, but that costs money (for an agency that has little). That is part of the problem. The Forest Service really doesn't care. They aren't thrashing the land, and the "trails" are officially closed. The county hates it, but they can't close it. WSDOT (and the state patrol) can't be pleased, but they can't close it either. I still don't understand why they aren't ticketing (in abundance). I once parked in a SnoPark permit area, having failed to get my permit in time (because the ranger station was closed). I paid a huge ticket to Kittitas County. Almost all of these riders are in Snohomish County -- the folks who are also doing all the rescues -- I don't understand why there aren't tickets on each and every one of the cars parked illegally.

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Anne Elk
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PostMon Jul 27, 2020 1:29 pm 
rossb wrote:
I don't understand why there aren't tickets on each and every one of the cars parked illegally.
Considering all the $$ to be made, you'd think it would be a no-brainer; for tow companies as well as the county. There'd maybe even be extra funds for SAR. Perhaps the complaints need to be bumped up - to county gov't. If a parking lot of the size you suggest were constructed, it would still be a terribly dangerous spot unless a pedestrian overpass were constructed. None of that is ever going to happen.

"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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rossb
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PostMon Jul 27, 2020 1:44 pm 
Anne Elk wrote:
If a parking lot of the size you suggest were constructed, it would still be a terribly dangerous spot unless a pedestrian overpass were constructed.
Not really. The spot I had in mind has fairly good visibility both directions. Drop the speed limit to 30, and have a crosswalk, with plenty of warning signs. People cross highways all the time. The overflow parking for Lake 22 is across the highway. For years that was the situation at Stevens Pass, and those crossings almost always took place in the winter (!). The main thing is to have visibility and slow speed limits. It isn't ideal (an overpass is) but it is still much better than people parked along the way, next to a blind corner.

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Anne Elk
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PostMon Jul 27, 2020 2:11 pm 
rossb wrote:
The spot I had in mind has fairly good visibility both directions. Drop the speed limit to 30, and have a crosswalk, with plenty of warning signs. People cross highways all the time. The overflow parking for Lake 22 is across the highway. For years that was the situation at Stevens Pass, and those crossings almost always took place in the winter (!). The main thing is to have visibility and slow speed limits. It isn't ideal (an overpass is) but it is still much better than people parked along the way, next to a blind corner.
There's no comparison between the MLH and Hwy 2 relative to traffic volume. The Hwy 2 choke points between Monroe and Gold Bar are bad enough. WSDOT would not sacrifice good traffic flow in that locale in service of a swimming hole. Ticket & tow. Cheapest solution. Or just ticket - they can be real efficient using those scanners like the parking cops in Seattle use.

"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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rossb
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PostMon Jul 27, 2020 2:27 pm 
Anne Elk wrote:
WSDOT would not sacrifice good traffic flow in that locale in service of a swimming hole.
Why not? They did that for Stevens Pass until 2010 (not that long ago). For years and years skiers would cross the highway. The speed limit is lowered in various places now. There are traffic lights that cause backups for miles. I don't see much of a difference.

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Chief Joseph
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PostMon Jul 27, 2020 4:31 pm 
I agree with Ross, I mean people need to get out and recreate. If an area becomes too crowded then more parking needs to be implemented, just shutting down and ticketing people won’t solve the problem. Look at the ice caves parking area size. The ice caves are a very popular destination so they built a huge PL, I have never seen it full.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Kim Brown
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PostMon Jul 27, 2020 4:54 pm 
Where would they build a huge parking lot?

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Chief Joseph
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PostMon Jul 27, 2020 5:03 pm 
rossb wrote:
I think the only long term answer is for the Forest Service to build a new parking lot. I think the best bet is the little wedge between the highway and the railroad tracks, just north of the falls. According to the Snohomish County maps, this is all Forest Service land. The little wedge looks fairly flat. At roughly here, you would have a perpendicular logging road that immediately turned north. This would cost some money, but shouldn't be horribly expensive. While the trees in the area aren't really big, it is possible some of the money could be made back with a small timber sale in the area (might as well log everything between the highway and the railroad tracks). You would have plenty of room for a big parking lot. Forest Service Passes would be required.
Maybe not "Huge" Kim, but definitely way bigger than it is now.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Kim Brown
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PostMon Jul 27, 2020 5:41 pm 
OK, I missed that post about a location. I don't know that the USFS would deal with a parking lot; that would mean the falls are a recreation site - something they'd have to patrol and maintain. They'd have to study it, probably do a public process. And a parking lot next to an active train track - not sure they'd want to set themselves up for any kind of liability. They're not liable for the attraction of the falls because - they're not an official recreation site. It's a place in the river. Sorta like like off trail hikes. It's a conundrum for sure.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Schroder
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PostMon Jul 27, 2020 6:06 pm 
That pull-off for the falls is situated in one of the most hazardous areas along Hiway 2. There have been multiple fatalities there, one of which I witnessed. I think the pullouts should be blocked with Jersey barriers & if they want to develop access it needs to be far away from that curve, or on the other side of the river.

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