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Snuffy
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Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 315 | TRs | Pics
Location: Everett, WA |
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Snuffy
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 Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:39 pm |
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| Noheaperture wrote: | | And it seems as if moderators like to turn off all comments when people just want to share basic LNT principals. |
I'd be interested in hearing more about this, do you have examples? I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen.
You don't find yourself standing at the top of a mountain without having started out in the valley.
You don't find yourself standing at the top of a mountain without having started out in the valley.
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Noheaperture
Nohea
Joined: 25 Aug 2018
Posts: 130 | TRs | Pics
Location: Issaquah |
| Snuffy wrote: | | I'd be interested in hearing more about this, do you have examples? I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen. |
I tried to post this article twice when colchuck was blowing up in may and it was denied.
https://lnt.org/new-social-media-guidance/
Maybe they should follow suit with LNT and incorporate the idea that geotagging will not do any good for those backcountry environments but it seems it’s almost encouraged to name drop. IDK if you feel that group is helpful to the environment but it seems clear as day to a lot of people on here it’s pretty bad...
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Snuffy
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Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 315 | TRs | Pics
Location: Everett, WA |
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Snuffy
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Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:39 pm |
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Hmmm...I can do a search of the group and find that very article shared in a post so I'd be interested in how you shared it or if you talked with any moderators about it being denied.
A lot of information about LNT goes out in the group and Colchuck posts (along with other overrun places) are not currently being allowed to post (unless attached to an Enchantments trip). I just shared a post about having to put out some idiots fire I found on the Deception Creek trail and attached info from the USFS.
And as for your comment about folks "here" don't care for the group, I'm not sure I really care about that or consider that an argument against WHC. I have seen/heard Colchuck (and other overrun places) mentioned while pumping gas and in many other groups on FB.
In general the topic of geotagging is a heated one even more so now when there literally is nothing else available to do except get outside and folks who don't want to share their favorite outdoors spaces are funneling thousands into just a few popular ones. One could argue that the very act of not sharing leads to a concentration in particular areas when folks don't know about the many other possible places to go. Do we need to be thoughtful about sharing? Yes. But based on the replies to your original post, folks "here" seem to be more concerned with limiting access to new or less experienced hikers than spreading folks out on trails.
It is easy to sit on the outside and armchair quarterback that group and WHC makes an easy target for the social media woes. The selfies alone are obnoxious.
But a ton of work goes into moderating that group and a ton of LNT violations are denied and deleted AD NAUSEAM. Many comments are redirected to educate new (and experienced) hikers. Many articles like the one above are sent to people with questions. Folks are constantly reminded about hike guides like WTA. Are you a member of the group? Have you read the announcements in the group or information about the group that share LNT principles?
The group is not perfect and I personally have a love/hate relationship. But I do know we have many helpful members who spend a lot of their time offering productive help and education to members in both their posts and comments. I don't know why your attempts to post that article were denied but it wasn't because WHC isn't interested in educating its members about LNT.
You don't find yourself standing at the top of a mountain without having started out in the valley.
You don't find yourself standing at the top of a mountain without having started out in the valley.
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FiveNines
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Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 526 | TRs | Pics
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| Snuffy wrote: | | I have seen/heard Colchuck (and other overrun places) mentioned while pumping gas and in many other groups on FB. |
Please, if you care about our special spots, watch your mouths at the pump! I'm embarrassed to admit I went to Blanca Lake last year after hearing about it at the Leavenworth sfwy gas pump. I'd never heard of the place before. Of course, now I know better.
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BigBrunyon
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 1458 | TRs | Pics
Location: the fitness gyms!! |
| Snuffy wrote: | | folks who don't want to share their favorite outdoors spaces are funneling thousands into just a few popular ones. |
The levels of entitlement here are through the roof. Get a map and go. These places actually exist and you can find them and go to them. It's up to you. We who have done these things are not "funneling" anyone anywhere. Puh-lease...
| Snuffy wrote: | | I personally have a love/hate relationship |
I'd say mine's more just hate.
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Snuffy
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Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 315 | TRs | Pics
Location: Everett, WA |
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Snuffy
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Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:45 pm |
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| FiveNines wrote: | | Please, if you care about our special spots, watch your mouths at the pump! I'm embarrassed to admit I went to Blanca Lake last year after hearing about it at the Leavenworth sfwy gas pump. I'd never heard of the place before. Of course, now I know better. |
Ha!! It is a thing. The same guy I overheard at the pump flirting with a gal from out of town and mentioning hikes even included Thunder Mountain Lakes!
You don't find yourself standing at the top of a mountain without having started out in the valley.
You don't find yourself standing at the top of a mountain without having started out in the valley.
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fourteen410
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Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 2629 | TRs | Pics
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| Schroder wrote: | | I lurk there to see where not to go and what's going to be destroyed next. |
Same here.
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olderthanIusedtobe
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Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 7709 | TRs | Pics
Location: Shoreline |
I know it's analog in a digital world, but Colchuck, Blanca, etc. etc. etc. have been in the 100 Hikes series and probably other hiking guides going back at least 40 years. They aren't secrets and haven't been during the lifetime of anyone currently alive. Washington Trails Association has a hike finder online that's probably got nearly every official trail in Washington included in it. WH&C may be the easiest target to fire shots at, but there are a whole bunch of ways to find out about trails (the pump at the gas station in Leavenworth apparently?). WTA seems to have a few "it" hikes each year with countless TRs for the same hike week after week after week that have a similar effect of funneling hikers as whatever WH&C is doing.
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Snuffy
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Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 315 | TRs | Pics
Location: Everett, WA |
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Snuffy
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Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:19 am |
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| BigBrunyon wrote: | | The levels of entitlement here are through the roof. Get a map and go. These places actually exist and you can find them and go to them. It's up to you. We who have done these things are not "funneling" anyone anywhere. Puh-lease... |
Puh-lease? Entitlement? The fact is that outwardly most folks here bemoan that Colchuck (Lake 22, Pilchuck, etc.) are overrun while secretly being thankful that means that their "secret spot" or "solitude" hasn't been discovered. Yet.
You don't find yourself standing at the top of a mountain without having started out in the valley.
You don't find yourself standing at the top of a mountain without having started out in the valley.
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Bosterson
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Joined: 12 Sep 2019
Posts: 294 | TRs | Pics
Location: Portland |
Go! Take a gun! And a dog! Without a leash! Chop down a tree! Start a fire! Piss wherever you want! Build a cairn! A HUGE ONE!
BE A REBEL! YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE!
(-bootpathguy)
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Snuffy
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Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 315 | TRs | Pics
Location: Everett, WA |
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Snuffy
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Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:07 am |
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| Bosterson wrote: | This specious argument comes up repeatedly from the pro-social media crowd. To make sure I understand, even though the baseline/default is to literally say nothing, your contention is that we all have a moral obligation to act by telling everyone about everything we do in order to (potentially) influence them indirectly into going to a wider variety of places, in the (hypothetical) hope of saving the wilderness from overuse? Because if not sharing leads to a bad outcome, are we not thus obligated to share? Is everyone who doesn't post a trip report complicit in the destruction of the outdoors? 
Also, conflating not saying something with limiting access (again, I've heard this one before) is mile high nonsense. My not telling you where I went last weekend has no effect whatsoever on your ability to go to the same place, just like my not telling you what I made for dinner has no effect on your ability to go to the grocery store. |
The topic was WHC and the bane that is social media.
Social media is here and it not going anywhere. The days of only having a book, map or friend as a reference are gone for “just getting out there”, unfortunately. People use social media as a tool for good or bad. Personally, I use WHC to know where not go as others have stated.
You can choose to participate or not. Choose your default of nothing. There is no obligation or responsibility to share. But the fact Is there are people who are sharing and they are sharing a limited amount of places, usually based on what they are seeing (or not seeing) on social media.
Choosing to not participate and share is one option. Another is to choose an active role that educates and shares other hikes in an effort to spread people out. You will commonly see guidebook authors use the huge group That is WHC to do this (and sell their books).
You are right, what you had for dinner has zero effect on my ability to go to the grocery store. But hearing what other people are having for dinner when I am looking for suggestions might effect which store I go to and what I choose to buy so I’m not eating the same thing for dinner every night.
You don't find yourself standing at the top of a mountain without having started out in the valley.
You don't find yourself standing at the top of a mountain without having started out in the valley.
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Secret Agent Man
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Joined: 24 Dec 2015
Posts: 164 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle |
I’m pretty sure that word has been out about Colchuck Lake being a popular hike before this Facebook group was around. Hikers overused and abused the Enchantments and required the permit system to be put in place before Facebook was around. Hikers swarmed and damaged Tuck and Robin Lakes before Facebook was around. Etc. It’s totally fair to criticize this and other Facebook groups but it’s also absolutely ridiculous to single them out as sources of bad behavior.
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timberghost
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Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 1331 | TRs | Pics
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Those areas you mentioned did not get near the activity or visitation they do now. Some little known or were little visited before FB postings became over run now.
Areas like the enchantments, jade lake etc have become over run as a result. Soon enough the Enchantments will be strictly permit only with no day hike only without permit.
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BigBrunyon
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 1458 | TRs | Pics
Location: the fitness gyms!! |
| Snuffy wrote: | | The fact is that outwardly most folks here bemoan that Colchuck (Lake 22, Pilchuck, etc.) are overrun while secretly being thankful that means that their "secret spot" or "solitude" hasn't been discovered. Yet. |
OK, I'm 'bout to make a bold move. This might get pushback from all the secret-keepin' holier-than-thou types here... but here it is. All secret spots are revealed at this link. Wait for it...
https://www.google.com/earth/versions/
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Chief Joseph
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Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 7709 | TRs | Pics
Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
| Snuffy wrote: | | FiveNines wrote: | | Please, if you care about our special spots, watch your mouths at the pump! I'm embarrassed to admit I went to Blanca Lake last year after hearing about it at the Leavenworth sfwy gas pump. I'd never heard of the place before. Of course, now I know better. |
Ha!! It is a thing. The same guy I overheard at the pump flirting with a gal from out of town and mentioning hikes even included Thunder Mountain Lakes! |
The Forest Gnome?
I am not sure if the increased traffic can be completely blamed on FB, there are just way more people hiking nowadays.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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(Also, +1 for loving BigBrunyon's posts. 
)