Forum Index > Trail Talk > FB group Washington hikers and climbers a good or bad thing?
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Snuffy
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PostTue Aug 04, 2020 12:51 pm 
slabbyd wrote:
Can we start one about the crazy ham-fisted moderation on WH&C?
Sounds like someone who has been on the receiving end of such "ham-fisted" moderation.

You don't find yourself standing at the top of a mountain without having started out in the valley.
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olderthanIusedtobe
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PostTue Aug 04, 2020 1:33 pm 
guibo wrote:
My other idea is an online reservation system for parking spots, since hiking = parking. Enforcement is the weak link, but just contract out to write tickets and boot the repeat offenders.
Dog Mountain in the Columbia River Gorge has this, at least on weekends. Colchuck/Stewart Lake TH sorta had a de facto version of this last year when they were ticketing overflow parking, but this year has been worse than ever it sounds like. I think there is a reserved section for overnight parties for Enchantment zones (who of course do need permits), but I don't know how/if that is being enforced.

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slabbyd
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PostTue Aug 04, 2020 1:42 pm 
No...I only lurk out of occasional curiosity. But the moderators there shut down any sort of possible discourse on impact almost immediately while they other day they happily left open a thread on the young (miraculously found) disappeared girl where everyone piled on with their own theories about sex trafficking etc rolleyes.gif

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guibo
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PostTue Aug 04, 2020 1:49 pm 
Secret Agent Man wrote:
And the hikers of my parents’ generation didn’t understand the concept of not burning and burying their trash.
"Because it was even worse before" is a poor benchmark for setting a standard in the present. Burning and burying trash is below the line. S***ing next to the trail is also below the line. How about we expect people to do precisely neither?

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kitya
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PostTue Aug 04, 2020 2:05 pm 
Or northern neighbors just implemented day hiking pass reservation system for most popular hikes in BC parks. Day hiking passes are free, but there is a limit and you have to get it in order to do a day hike. It is per person. and you have to get them on the day you plan to hike. You can get pass online only starting exactly 6:00 am. Seems like a pain, which is probably the goal. http://bcparks.ca/reserve/day-use/ IMHO, limiting number of people through artificial rules or keeping places 'hidden' is a bad idea. It is bad for the parks and it doesn't really work. If you have demand, demand will find a way, this is just economics. We have great system for managing demand in economics. $. We constantly there is not enough funding for conservation, but we have huge demand from people who want to visit said wild places and enjoy them. Why not use one problem to solve the other? I have been to Blanca lake trail last Saturday. it was overflowing with cars and people. Yet there was also the sign at the trailhead that passes are not required and bathrooms are locked. Worried about poop left near trails? Well locking the bathroom is exactly what makes people poop in the woods. Sure, we want everyone to LNT, but when nature calls there is not much else people can do. There easily was 50 cars there. Why not charge $20 or something per car and keep the bathrooms clean and open and also have money left to improve the trail? The same trail can fit a lot more people with a lot less resource degradation not by limiting the number of people, but by building the trail better. Social trail happen because existing trails are too narrow or two wet or don't go where people want to go. Building boardwalks over swampy areas is a great way to keep forest environment safer and cleaner and prevent resources damage even with a lot of people on the trail. In many other places people do exactly that. National parks in Japan and China have millions more visitors that any most popular in US and yet they still manage to keep nature clean and pristine and also let people see it and enjoy it.

dave allyn
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slabbyd
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PostTue Aug 04, 2020 2:12 pm 
Thats amazing what they did in BC. Maybe a PITA but sounds much preferable to the actual ass-sniffing that hiking up the Stawamus Chief had become.

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Snuffy
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PostTue Aug 04, 2020 2:19 pm 
slabbyd wrote:
No...I only lurk out of occasional curiosity. But the moderators there shut down any sort of possible discourse on impact almost immediately while they other day they happily left open a thread on the young (miraculously found) disappeared girl where everyone piled on with their own theories about sex trafficking etc rolleyes.gif
Are you familiar with how FB group moderation works? With a group that size and only roughly 20 moderators, it relies heavily on reported posts and “keywords”. “Possible discourse” inevitably ends in rude, uncivil and unproductive discourse. Especially in the middle of a pandemic. And all the moderators do actually hike and climb, so some inappropriate posts/comments end up sitting there awhile even when reported.

You don't find yourself standing at the top of a mountain without having started out in the valley.
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Snuffy
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PostTue Aug 04, 2020 2:26 pm 
kitya wrote:
Yet there was also the sign at the trailhead that passes are not required and bathrooms are locked.
This may have already been mentioned as this is a very long thread but in addition to bathrooms locked and garbage cans not being maintained, we also have a state directive to not carpool with those outside our household. And the only social activity open right now is basically the outdoors. Our trails, trailheads and outdoor spaces were pretty much screwed no matter who you blame.

You don't find yourself standing at the top of a mountain without having started out in the valley.
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Chief Joseph
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PostTue Aug 04, 2020 2:31 pm 
olderthanIusedtobe wrote:
Oops, I was repying to slabbyd, not guibo's most recent post. Honestly I haven't been hiking much this year. I've already generally avoided west side of I-90 in recent years. Mountain Loop Highway is my nearest go to area, I'm sure that's slammed. I don't love the crowds, but I really, really don't like the idea of taking away options from everybody.
The MLH is like a freeway on weekends, I am retired so I usually stay home or go elsewhere during that time. I went out to a lake off the MLH yesterday and didn't see another person, but unfortunately not any fish either. The access road had bad washouts several years ago and is now fixed. I didn't think it ever would be due to the magnitude of the damage. There is one spot that pretty much requires a AWD with a bit of clearance. I made in my old Celica but just barely and bottomed out. PM me if you want further info.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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kitya
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PostTue Aug 04, 2020 2:40 pm 
Snuffy wrote:
kitya wrote:
Yet there was also the sign at the trailhead that passes are not required and bathrooms are locked.
This may have already been mentioned as this is a very long thread but in addition to bathrooms locked and garbage cans not being maintained, we also have a state directive to not carpool with those outside our household. And the only social activity open right now is basically the outdoors. Our trails, trailheads and outdoor spaces were pretty much screwed no matter who you blame.
Yes, no carpooling also means more cars and more emissions, which makes me sad frown.gif But bathrooms locked and garbage cans not being maintained seems random. Easy Pass trailhead and Watson lakes trailhead had bathrooms opened and clean. There was a sign that said that due to covid you use bathroom at your own risk, but that it is all. And the forest pass was still required both at Easy Pass trailhead and Watson lakes trailhead. And while they are popular, they are nowhere near as popular as Blanca. Yet Blanca where there is most demand is completely abandoned to do whatever - no enforcement, no passes required, no bathrooms or trash cans. If we seriously want to preserve our nature we need to focus resources on places that need them most, i.e. where there is most demand.

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Snuffy
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PostTue Aug 04, 2020 2:47 pm 
kitya wrote:
But bathrooms locked and garbage cans not being maintained seems random.
Random only because it is based on each ranger district and national forest. Easy Pass and Watson are a different forest/district than Blanca. Staffing varies widely. One of the downsides to decentralized management.

You don't find yourself standing at the top of a mountain without having started out in the valley.
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Slugman
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PostTue Aug 04, 2020 3:16 pm 
The people trying to claim that all visitation is equal are wrong. Those leaving trash, defecating improperly, camping in violation of the rules, etc, are a plague. As are those blocking roads by how they park. That does not mean every visit is bad. People who park legally and obey LNT can visit a place with minimal to no impact. This is not the equivalent of traffic on a highway where each person is another’s traffic. I would have no issue sharing Blanca lake with numerous other people, if not for the trash, boom boxes and feces.

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kitya
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kitya
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PostTue Aug 04, 2020 3:37 pm 
Slugman wrote:
The people trying to claim that all visitation is equal are wrong. Those leaving trash, defecating improperly, camping in violation of the rules, etc, are a plague. As are those blocking roads by how they park. That does not mean every visit is bad. People who park legally and obey LNT can visit a place with minimal to no impact. This is not the equivalent of traffic on a highway where each person is another’s traffic. I would have no issue sharing Blanca lake with numerous other people, if not for the trash, boom boxes and feces.
I agree with that! I like wilderness, but I don't mind that other people like wilderness too and I'm happy to see other people (and pets) also enjoying nature. It is good, it is healthy, it brings support for conservation too. We don't need to hide places, we just need to help people be more responsible and everyone can chip in. i pickup other people trash when I see it on trail and cleanup. Keeping trail clean helps keep it clean, people are really good at reacting to social cues. When we show we take LNT seriously, others also start taking LNT seriously. Just like wearing masks in public creates a social norm about wearing masks.

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Chief Joseph
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PostTue Aug 04, 2020 3:39 pm 
The trash problem has been much worse since the Corona shut down the agencies who maintain the TH's and Campgrounds. At Verlot last winter there was so much trash that there was a black bear spotted there. In May when they first opened up the Red Bridge CG, there was an over-flowing dumpster with so much trash on the driveway, it was barely passable. I saw a CG host go in there for a while and then leave, guess picking u trash is not in his job description. The Verlot Service center and bathrooms-trash receptacles have been shut down since the pandemic started and JUST recently they put in two port a potties. I think it's ridiculous that they cant at least maintain the restrooms and remove trash, but that is a Government Entity for you.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Anne Elk
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PostTue Aug 04, 2020 4:19 pm 
Chief Joseph wrote:
The trash problem has been much worse since the Corona shut down the agencies who maintain the TH's and Campgrounds. At Verlot last winter there was so much trash that there was a black bear spotted there. In May when they first opened up the Red Bridge CG, there was an over-flowing dumpster with so much trash on the driveway, it was barely passable. I think it's ridiculous that they cant at least maintain the restrooms and remove trash, but that is a Government Entity for you.
I've never seen a trash receptacle at any TH I've used, that I can recall. But to the point: Last year I was visiting family in NY and took a day to visit my old favorite hiking park, the "Grand Canyon of the East", Letchworth State Park; 17 miles long along the gorge of the Genesee River. At every formal picnic area there were signs saying, "This is a pack it in, pack it out park - take your trash with you." There were no trash cans to be found. I saw no trash, either. Don't know if it was the same policy in their designated CG area, but it wouldn't surprise me. But I get there are differences between state parks and less structured NF uses.

"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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