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guibo
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guibo
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PostSat Aug 08, 2020 2:32 pm 
RumiDude wrote:
Here is a recent Crosscut article about the legacy of John Muir in the outdoor movement
Just for the record, "don't geo-tag as much so fewer people will s*** two feet of the trail and leave their soiled toilet paper for all to enjoy" is not code for the "forced sterilization of people of color." And arguing that fewer people in fragile areas would be good, and we want the people who do show up to be knowledgeable about managing impact does not constitute elitism, unless knowledge itself is a discriminatory standard. Access for anyone does not mean access for everyone, all the time, no matter how they behave.

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Jake Robinson
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PostSat Aug 08, 2020 2:50 pm 
Wait, isn't it summer? The amount of "you damn kids get off my lawn" in this thread seems more appropriate for a cabin fever thread in February lol.gif (sorry Tom, couldn't resist)

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RumiDude
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PostSat Aug 08, 2020 4:18 pm 
guibo wrote:
Just for the record, "don't geo-tag as much so fewer people will s*** two feet of the trail and leave their soiled toilet paper for all to enjoy" is not code for the "forced sterilization of people of color."
I didn't state or imply that it did. But I would note that it is a claim that has absolutely no data or logic to back it up.
guibo wrote:
And arguing that fewer people in fragile areas would be good, and we want the people who do show up to be knowledgeable about managing impact does not constitute elitism, unless knowledge itself is a discriminatory standard. Access for anyone does not mean access for everyone, all the time, no matter how they behave.
The proposed banning of geotagging photos, which is the subject of this thread, does not accomplish the goal of fewer people and less impact. Trying to limit access to knowledge is elitism. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Tom
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PostSat Aug 08, 2020 4:34 pm 
Jake Robinson wrote:
Wait, isn't it summer? The amount of "you damn kids get off my lawn" in this thread seems more appropriate for a cabin fever thread in February lol.gif (sorry Tom, couldn't resist)
Sadly seems more like the whole site as of late. Some of us still seem to get out, but sad to see few replies to TRs vs. so much time and energy wasted on debating minutia.

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guibo
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guibo
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PostSat Aug 08, 2020 6:20 pm 
RumiDude wrote:
Trying to limit access to knowledge is elitism.
That makes zero sense. I have a favorite lunch spot, I'm obligated to share that information with the world? I'm a chemical engineer who works in high-speed explosives. Guess I better publish a blog on how everyone can build their own IED at home, because to limit access to that knowledge is elitist. Sorry, but impact to sensitive places is a real problem we should all be invested in solving, and raising the bar is a fair step, especially since it improves the experience for someone just getting into it. Don't you remember attempting a route, failing, learning, coming back, getting better? That process has been all but killed by FOMO. We already know what we're going to get before we go, which is really dull. Discovery, growth - those are parts of the outdoors. Or at least they were.

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Chief Joseph
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PostSat Aug 08, 2020 6:32 pm 
I doubt if anything other than a Permit System, Enforcement, and Education will have much if any affect. Hopefully the "Newbie Millenial Hikers" will tire of the "Popular Places" and branch out to other areas as members here have done.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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RumiDude
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PostSat Aug 08, 2020 7:09 pm 
guibo wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
Trying to limit access to knowledge is elitism.
That makes zero sense. I have a favorite lunch spot, I'm obligated to share that information with the world? I'm a chemical engineer who works in high-speed explosives. Guess I better publish a blog on how everyone can build their own IED at home, because to limit access to that knowledge is elitist.
I don't think you get the idea behind this ban on geotagging photos at all and you aren't being asked to reveal your precious lunch spot. The idea is you are telling others they shouldn't reveal their favorite lunch spot. So you see, it makes complete sense because you are telling others they should not share knowledge, which is elitist.
guibo wrote:
Sorry, but impact to sensitive places is a real problem we should all be invested in solving, and raising the bar is a fair step, especially since it improves the experience for someone just getting into it. Don't you remember attempting a route, failing, learning, coming back, getting better? That process has been all but killed by FOMO. We already know what we're going to get before we go, which is really dull. Discovery, growth - those are parts of the outdoors. Or at least they were.
Impact to sensitive areas is a real problem but is not solved by trying to limit knowledge. Telling people they should only enjoy the outdoors the way you do is not just elitist, it's hubristic. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Jake Robinson
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PostSat Aug 08, 2020 7:51 pm 
I don't understand the logic of some posters here. Why create an anonymous account on nwhikers just to argue against nwhikers? I've seen this multiple times recently. Posting on here just adds more content to the site and validates its existence, imo... Yeah, it's more crowded out there these days. Navigation apps and detailed beta have lowered the barrier to entry to a lot of places. I get it. There are no secrets anymore and the internet has changed things, forever. Social media and trip reports have led to certain destinations getting overrun. That said, I hike primarily on weekends and overcrowding is rarely an issue for me. If your hikes are overrun with people, maybe you need to be a bit more creative in picking your destinations.... I did the Ptarmigan Traverse a few weeks ago. This is a well documented route and you can find beta and GPS tracks online to your heart's content. There were a few other parties on the route when we did it. And yet, we were the only ones at three out of our four campsites. We were initially a bit bummed to have to share Itswoot Ridge with another party, but they ended up being super nice, like-minded people that were passionate about the mountains and just loving being out there. We enjoyed lots of engaging conversation and a wonderful climb up Dome Peak with them to finish our trip. It was a great experience. I know that not all encounters with other people are positive like this, but they don't all have to be negative. I think people around here need to lighten up a little. Post TRs, or don't (but I refuse to believe that all trip reports are for "validation junkies"). I don't TR most of my hikes anymore, but will do so occasionally if I think I have useful information to offer. Go hike somewhere where you are unlikely to find other people. If you want a "true adventure, like the good old days," don't do any research and just wing it. Nothing stopping you from doing that. I bet Lage Wernstedt would have scoffed at all the copious beta in the Beckey Guides. And 7.5' maps - that's basically cheating! Here's an idea: Head up the Baker River and then up Picket Creek up towards Wild Lake. It's not even that many miles. And I doubt you'll see any pesky, selfie-taking, validation-seeking, music-blaring, hashtagging millenials up there (but if you do, tell them to get off your damn lawn! or rather - get off your damn field of slide alder) clown.gif

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BigBrunyon
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PostSat Aug 08, 2020 10:01 pm 
Agreed Jake!! If you aren't finding solitude and adventure, you aren't competin' hard enough!! You also don't even need to do something like the Ptarmigan to find it. I've been completely solo at lakes ~5 miles, 2000 ft gain from highway 2 on Saturday nights in July.. Creativity FTW. ('course I may or may not have ran in place for an hour in camp to make up for the ease of the 'pproach... or atleast im sayin' I did to keep up my reputation as a die hard idiot). Bottom line, I love this forum in all its glory and anti glory. I don't post TR's. Maybe I should, but I believe the vast majority of my hikes wouldn't provide much beta that isn't out there already. And it would be out of character. And I am way lazier at home/on the computer than out on those hot, steep, dusty 'pproaches wink.gif

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John_B
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PostSun Aug 09, 2020 6:58 am 
BB I feel like the 4th wall has been broken. I'm not sure how I feel now.

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BigBrunyon
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PostSun Aug 09, 2020 5:50 pm 
'pologies. Had a couple whiskeys. Things got weird!!

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timberghost
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PostMon Aug 10, 2020 5:46 am 
understatement

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Randito
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PostMon Aug 10, 2020 7:37 am 
Only 18 people have signed the original petition-- looks like few people think this is a useful idea.

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slabbyd
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PostMon Aug 10, 2020 9:06 am 
Chief Joseph wrote:
I doubt if anything other than a Permit System, Enforcement, and Education will have much if any affect. Hopefully the "Newbie Millenial Hikers" will tire of the "Popular Places" and branch out to other areas as members here have done.
I don’t know....maybe the current situation is the best possible outcome....rather 300 cars at 10 trailheads than 50 cars at 60 trailheads

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Snuffy
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PostTue Aug 11, 2020 11:46 am 
xrp wrote:
Information wants to be free. Geo-tagging will just pop up in another group (there are already plenty of alternatives to WH&C) and people will congregate there for information. Make sure to notify us about your future petitions to ban and burn books you don’t like.
Love it! I agree, WHC makes an easy target but there are a billion other places on social media to find "low lying fruit". Instagram much? Go find an influencer with 150,000 followers to ban...

You don't find yourself standing at the top of a mountain without having started out in the valley.
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