[Ski]

and why is this thread not in "Stewardship" where it belongs?

[dixon]

[Brian R]

[Ski]

^ I made a point of calling Uberuaga's office and talking to his executive assistant Donna and extending my thanks and commending his actions the morning he instructed the maintenance staff to drive a tracked excavator right down into Kautz Creek and clearing the flood debris out of the way so it didn't block the culvert and blow out the road. Had the culvert failed, it most likely would have taken out a couple hundred yards of asphalt-paved roadway (and the sub-base), eliminated vehicle access past that point for the tourist traffic, and (most likely) required years of NEPA wrangling to get it fixed. There's been a lot of bitching on this site about Uberuaga, but he's the only NPS Superintendent that I've known around here (at ONP or MRNP) who was willing and able to take command and do what needed to be done when it needed to be done without a lot of pussyfootin' around.

[Brian R]

[Brian R]

[Ski]

I am not familiar at all with the current conditions up the Westside Road. I used to drive up there regularly after work to watch the sunset from Klapatchie Point, but that was almost 50 years ago. I was a staunch supporter of keeping the Carbon River Road to Ipsut open, and worked with a volunteer crew of Mountaineers when the first proposals for converting it to trail were being made. It was just after that when the gravel streambed of the Carbon was raised higher than the road surface (presumably by glacial action), and that old wooden cribbing along the bank started being recruited into logjams by the action of the Carbon. After several walks up the length of the road, and conversations with MRNP planners, I completely changed positions and fully supported Uberuaga's unilateral decision to permanently close it, as it was obvious it had become a lost cause, just as with the "highway around the mountain".

[Ski]

Maybe my perception is skewed, but it looks to me like most of the comments here in support of putting in a shuttle service between the Nisqually entrance and Paradise are coming from people living north of WA-18. I'm not sure exactly what the situation is currently, but between 1977 and 1981, when I was working in Yelm (6 or 7 days a week, and always every weekend), I was always amazed at the amount of traffic that passed through from WA-510 and then onto WA-702 on the way to MRNP during the summer months. The overwhelming majority of those people I encountered were families on sightseeing tours, travelling with cars full of kids and dogs and Grandma and Grandpa and all of the clutter one would expect from such a group: ice chests, suitcases and the like. Are these people supposed to just leave the animals in their cars while they ride the shuttle, and schlep all of their crap with them? Seriously? Unfortunately, the hikers and backpackers here seem oblivious to (or perhaps choose to ignore) the fact that (according to the NPS's own numbers) over 90% of NPS visitation is "windshield tourism": people who never venture more than a couple hundred yards from their automobiles. Believing that a shuttle service is going to change that dynamic is as laughably delusional as the City of Seattle's municipal government's belief that reducing the number of available parking spaces is going to compel people to use their mass-transit systems, which are (for all intents and purposes) effectively useless for people travelling from outside the metropolitan core area.

[Ski]

A point I raised in 1997 when the Briggle administration came up with this same hare-brained scheme of shuttle service between the Nisqually entrance and Paradise was: What about Fred and Ethel? Is this shuttle service going to make a stop, and let Fred and Ethel get off at one of the innumerable pull-outs along the highway, where 45 years ago they walked down and sat on the rocks next to the Nisqually River and Fred proposed marriage? And is this shuttle going to come back and pick them up after they've climbed back up to the road, having reminisced for a few brief minutes about a moment long ago? How long are we going to make them stand at the side of the road and wait for the next shuttle? Before or after Ethel wets her pants or Fred needs his medication that they left in the car? Or will the shuttle only stop at "destination sites", like Narada Falls?

Upper Nisqually River MRNP 062320 01

Rainier MRNP 062320 04

Rainier MRNP 062320 10

Again, I'd submit that the overwhelming majority of the hikers and backpackers here who are thinking that a shuttle is going to provide some panacea for a perceived "problem" that actually only exists for a few days out of the year are completely clueless about the vast majority of NPS visitors driving through MRNP (or Hwy 101 between South Beach and Ruby Beach along the Kalaloch Coastal Strip) who stop and take in the sights for only a few brief minutes before getting back in their cars and rushing off to their next destination. I've spent the last 50+ years watching and talking with those people - the ones pulled over along WA-410 just uphill from Deadwood Creek snapping shots of the White River valley, and the ones with Florida plates on their rental cars who pull over at Kalaloch Beach #1 for a brief glimpse of the Pacific - and no matter how you slice or dice it, "shuttle" isn't going to serve their purposes, and I have less than zero faith that the NPS can manage it in a way that can, particularly in light of the woefully dismal track records at both MRNP and ONP when it comes to managing their reservation systems.

[Brian R]

Good insight, Ski. MRNP was established in 1899 and was the first national park to allow private automobiles. MORA and the automobile rose together. A great book that buttresses your arguments is Windshield Wilderness by David Luoter. Some of our Seattle mass-transit friends would do well to read it as they all sound like hammers in search of a nail.

[altasnob]

Here's my perfect solution if costs are not an issue: Purchase property in Enumclaw, Ashford, and Packwood. Pave the lots, build bathrooms, welcome stations. The park stays open to private vehicles just like it is now. However, shuttles run from the three lots 9 am to 5 pm (Enumclaw Packwood closed in winter, Ashford stays open). Private vehicles can drive in as normal but vehicles that pass through gates are counted. Once the vehicle count reaches a threshold amount, visitors must use the shuttles. Big electronic sign boards and Rainier's twitter alert visitors if they must use the shuttle before they pass the shuttle parking lot. Of course, people can always use the shuttle even if the parking lots have not filled yet. You need shuttles to access all three Rainier gates otherwise you just divert crowds. No one has provided any evidence on how much the above would cost and whether it is something Rainier could realistically afford. You could charge money for the shuttles, which could offset some of the costs. However, as I posted previously, Zion spends 65 to 79% of their entrance fees each year just operating their puny little shuttle, and Zion has more than two times the visitors as Rainier. My plan above would be a 50 to 100 year process. That doesn't mean such a plan should not be started, but I recognize that the costs are astronomical. Like most new mass transit project proposals in the US, it sounds amazing but doesn't make financial sense. I don't think my plan will ever happen because we, as a society, like to live in the moment and do not like to think about how to make the world a better place 100 years from now.

[treeswarper]

The area pondered about briefly that is in Lewis County near Ashford is administered by the Gifford Pinchot NF, and is part of the Cowlitz Valley RD. It is known as The Mineral Block. It is pretty much all LSR. It would not do to convert that into a parking lot. If one was serious about a parking lot and shuttle from Packwood, the old PLS mill site is huge and would do. Locals may be touchy about mowing down the woods for a parking lot. There's been a bit of controversy over the construction or improvement--depends on how you look at it, of a parking area for fishing people near the bridge at the beginning of the Skate Cr. Road. The Skate Cr. road would need a lot of reconstruction if it was part of the shuttle. For shuttle drivers, there are a lot of people in East Lewis County with CDLs. One winter source of employment for those folks is on the winter White Pass DOT crew--snow plow drivers, if they are hiring. I know of one FS temp who did that. I'm thinking there must be a polluted, abandoned mill site around Elbe too. Just remember that the rest area there does not have flush toilets for a reason, unless they've changed that in the last couple of years. In wet, low lying areas like around Randle and Packwood, restrooms and development are limited because of the lack of sewage plants. Randle in particular has actually had new businesses closed down because of that. Packwood can't grow and was going to have a sewer system put in around 2008 and then the recession hit. While Lewis County turns a blind eye to filling up the wetlands for box stores in Chehalis and Centralia, they are hard core about septic systems in the East county. I'd say leave things be. I do like the bike riding bit but only if ebikes are included.

[Ski]

[Ski]

[Ski]

Forgot to mention: Hiking and backpacking account for less than 5% of all use of National Parks. Hikers and backpackers are unquestionably the overwhelming majority of nwhikers.net members, but out in the real world, on the ground, we're not even a tiny blip on the radar screen.