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Tom
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PostWed Jan 20, 2021 1:05 am 
Well, you posted quite a few links.  I suspect the plan is laid out somewhere for both King County and Seattle.  Maybe you could get involved with soundkeepers given your passion for the subject. wink.gif

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Tom
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PostWed Jan 20, 2021 1:31 am 
Just for grins I googled and found this without much effort.  There is a link for King County projects that have been completed.

https://www.kingcounty.gov/depts/dnrp/wtd/capital-projects.aspx

Seattle's plan is detailed here:

http://www.seattle.gov/utilities/about/plans/drainage-and-sewer/waterway-protection

Several hundred pages to wade thru.  Not my cup of tea. clown.gif  Executive summary is here:

http://www.seattle.gov/Documents/Departments/SPU/Documents/ExecutiveSummaryLTCP.pdf

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Sculpin
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PostWed Jan 20, 2021 9:27 am 
Missing from this discussion:

Everything else being equal, sending stormwater through a treatment plant is a good thing.  Raw stormwater from urban areas carries all sorts of nasty chemicals that can cause eutrophication of waterways.  I suspect that this is the reason why tearing out all the pipes is not at the top of the list.

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Ski
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PostThu Jan 21, 2021 2:08 am 
Tom wrote:
Not sure it's as simple as going to home depot to pick up some emergency generators.

I'm sure that it's not that simple, Tom. I assumed (perhaps mistakenly) that you would understand that my comment there was being made facetiously. My mistake.
From the news reports, it sounds (on the surface) as though the primary issue in several cases was lack of power.
The solution, unless I am mistaken, would be to install some sort of on-site emergency power generating facility - something done at hospitals and other large facilities. That would not require digging up miles of underground pipe, or laborious and expensive environmental reviews, or years of dickering among planners and environmental consultants and tribal concerns.
Which begs the question: why hasn't that been done?

Sculpin wrote:
"Raw stormwater from urban areas carries all sorts of nasty chemicals..."

No doubt, but reworking the infrastructure to handle the increased load may prove to be prohibitively expensive.

On that note:
Several years ago, I posted a trip report on Wapato Lake Park, located two blocks from the house I grew up in.
When I was a kid, we used to go down there and go swimming, and all the neighbor kids would walk down with their fishing poles and catch trout and perch and catfish.

My brother-in-law, who is ten years older than me, grew up just north of Wapato Lake, at about 56th and South Alaska Street.
Prior to the construction of I-5, he and his friends used to play in a small mill pond which was located (as near as I can figure from his descriptions and archival 7.5 USGS topographical maps) right about where the "cloverleaf" freeway interchange is located at Exit 130 (I-5 at South 56th Street - 47°12'23.4"N 122°27'41.1"W)
Per my brother-in-law's description, a small ephemeral stream ran from the mill pond down to the north end of Wapato Lake.

When I was a kid, prior to the development of Oscar Hokold's "Lakeshore Estates", there was a "Little Wapato Lake" on the south side of South 72nd Street (just east of South Alaska Street) into which the outflow from Wapato Lake drained.
With the construction of I-5 (beginning at that point in 1958) and the development of "Lakeshore Estates" (beginning about 1960), the small mill pond was filled in, the stream into which it drained was filled in, and "Little Wapato Lake" was filled in, leaving no outlet for Wapato Lake.

Since then, all of the stormwater from South 38th Street over to (what is now) Tacoma Mall Boulevard, and east to about South M Street, and thence south to South 74th Street all flows into Wapato Lake.

In the mid-1960s, my playmates, the Robinson kids, all were afflicted with "swimmers itch" from swimming in Wapato Lake. My mother purchased a large above-ground swimming pool and we hosted most of the neighbor kids, none of whom were allowed by their parents to swim at Wapato Lake after the incident with the Robinson kids.

In addition to the huge population increase of the resident waterfoul that was the source of the "swimmers itch", homeowners whose properties surrounded the lake were using massive amounts of lawn chemicals, which fouled the lake even more.
Further compounding the problem was all of the runoff from the entire area described above, which included about three miles of Interstate 5.

After some ill-advised attempts to correct the water quality issue in the lake, which had disastrous results, ultimately all life in the lake (with the exception of the ducks and newly arrived Canada Geese) was killed off.

Currently Pierce County, the City of Tacoma, and MetroParks Tacoma have for years been working on a project which allows the overflow from Wapato Lake to run through a pipe and over to Ward Lake just south of South 84th Street.

In a nutshell: stormwater runoff was (in large part) one of the primary causes for the total eradication of all of the fish and amphibians that originally inhabited the largest lake in the City of Tacoma.

But again, rebuilding all that infrastructure to accommodate the massive amount of stormwater could well take decades, and the price tag might be more than taxpayers would be willing to spend.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Tom
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PostThu Jan 21, 2021 6:15 pm 
Well, given there are 100+ pages of analysis in the Seattle Plan alone I would be surprised if something obvious to you or any of us hasn't been vetted.  Maybe you could give it a proper peer review?  How much of the Seattle and King County plan have you read?  I must admit I started falling asleep in the Seattle executive summary and never made it to the detailed plans but what I read gave me some confidence these weren't bumbling buffoons involved in developing the plan or regulatory authorities that approved it and same for those monitoring progress.  I know at the grocery store when power goes out it's a mad scramble to put stuff in emergency freezers and they will bring in freezer trucks for extended storage.  I'd think a treatment plant might draw a lot more power than a hospital or grocery store but it's not really my area of expertise.

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PostThu Jan 21, 2021 7:42 pm 
Since you ask....
I've been more focused on another issue lately and just haven't invested myself in wastewater and stormwater treatment. Last time I delved into it was a lengthy phone conversation with one of the staff people at TPU several months ago.
Doubtless the power requirements for an industrial plant would need to be on a much larger scale than those at a grocery store (or even a hospital) but I am puzzled that it still seems to be a problem, considering most all of those news reports cited above seem to indicate that the spill events were caused by power outages.
Maybe Schroder can make a wild guess as to what sort of power generating capacity would be needed for such an operation? Engineering is not my area of expertise.
I'll dig into those reports when I get time to do it, Tom.
BK

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Tom
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PostThu Jan 21, 2021 10:37 pm 
Seems the issue is more than just backup electricity.

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/king-county-to-evaluate-power-supply-at-treatment-plant-after-july-spill/982736750/

Quote:
King County auditors said while officials are making progress improving the plant, eliminating the risk of another emergency will require spending more than $200 million on improvements like replacing pumps.

Because that's complicated and expensive, auditors say the work could take until 2027 or beyond, making the plant vulnerable to more failures.

To come up with the money, King County is looking to put off some other wastewater projects.

I am guessing this is why groups like soundkeepers advocate for "scientifically sound" vs. amrchair solutions.

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Brian R
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PostThu Jan 21, 2021 11:06 pm 
Tom, the solutions have already been agreed to. What I see instead are band-aids by 2027 with no real effort toward any of the permanent solutions mandated by 2030 in the consent decree. Raise sewer rates. That's what my city did. 200 million is chump change to a city like Seattle.  I wonder if Puget Sound Keeper Alliance dot org, at 130 Nickerson Street in Seattle, would be so passive if this were any other city.  The message: Seattle says compliance is for the little people.

Again: To meet this limit, these municipalities planned projects to separate parts of the combined sewer, to add additional storage capacity to the system, and to build new treatment facilities to control their CSOs.

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Tom
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PostFri Jan 22, 2021 12:10 am 
Sounds like conspiracy nonsense and more armchairing.  I'd say Puget Sound Keeper Alliance is more likely to know what they are talking about and tell it like it is than the peanut gallery on NWH.

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Brian R
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PostFri Jan 22, 2021 12:19 am 
Classic Seattle reply. You should travel around the state more.

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Tom
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PostFri Jan 22, 2021 1:09 am 
Not sure why you think I need to travel around the State.  I am well aware of the rhetoric on social media with family and friends across the State (and Nation).  I don't disagree that Seattle or King County could do better when it comes to this and other issues.  I don't think there's a conspiracy though and rather than show up here and troll and finger point maybe you could do your part to have a genuine discussion?

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altasnob
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PostFri Jan 22, 2021 8:08 am 
Brian R's passion is "owning the libs" in Seattle. He brings up Seattle sewage spills in multiple threads to claim that Seattle and liberals in general are hypocrites. This is a common tactic of right wing media. Harp on a single claim of liberal hypocrisy regardless of how off topic it is.

I am surprised Brian R is fixated on this topic though. Anytime you cram a lot of people into the same city, particularly an old city, providing the necessary infrastructure will be costly and complex. Being a proponent of density, I think the benefits of society living densely in a place like Seattle outweighs the negatives, such as occasional infrastructure failures like sewage spills. Does Brian R want all these people in Seattle to move to his sprawling autocentric suburb, or maybe follow him out of state to Idaho?

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Brian R
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PostFri Jan 22, 2021 8:57 am 
Not at all; stay right where you are. Even though we will be in Montana by year's end, I'd like to think the Puget Sound I grew up on remains safe and healthy. But yes, congratulations, you both figured it out! The point is your hypocrisy.

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altasnob
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PostTue Jun 08, 2021 2:37 pm 
The Washington Department of Ecology has fined Electron Hydro, LLC, $501,000 for discharging discarded plastic field turf into the Puyallup River last summer.

The fine is paid into the state’s Coastal Protection Fund, which provides grants to public agencies and tribes for water quality restoration projects. Electron Hydro may appeal the penalty, order or both to the Washington state Pollution Control Hearings Board.

Chris Spens, director of regulatory and environmental affairs for Tollhouse Energy Company, which owns and runs the dam, said in an email that the company will appeal the fine.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/dam-operator-fined-501000-for-polluting-puyallup-river-with-artificial-turf-crumb-rubber/

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altasnob
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PostThu Jul 29, 2021 11:52 am 
Puyallup River pollution whistleblower sues dam operator, alleging it didn’t fully pay workers or provide breaks

Van Giesen said he was fired after 17 days on the job after he made a cellphone video of the company placing the artificial turf in the river and posted it on social media.

In his suit, Van Giesen alleged the company didn’t pay workers for time spent on the clock getting to the company’s remote work site on the Puyallup, or pay workers or provide breaks for meals as required by state law.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/puyallup-river-pollution-whistleblower-sues-dam-operator-alleging-it-didnt-fully-pay-workers-or-provide-breaks/

The lawsuits keep piling up against Electron Hydro, who will likely go bankrupt and leave the taxpayers to clean up this mess they made. It is a travesty that we ever let them operate a dam in this location.


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