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Canyon1
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PostTue Sep 01, 2020 10:06 am 
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In the trip reports today there is a post with the subject Oval Lakes. The author of the post has a pic of a campfire burning. There is presently a campfire restriction in the National Forests. Correct me if I am wrong. He also mentions the fire flaring up. This means sparks in the air. Correct me if I am wrong. My point is others are going to see this as a green light to ignite a campfire. I am sure my fire boy friends in IA and the Hot Shots are not going to appreciate this type of action. I have backpacked this area. So is the administrator of this website promoting campfires in a time of restriction by allowing this type of post? Let's see if this one get bounced.  mad.gif
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John_B
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PostTue Sep 01, 2020 11:04 am 
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I posted in the TR this is addressing but to my reading the fire restrictions went into effect after their trip.  https://www.fs.usda.gov/alerts/okawen/alerts-notices/?aid=60291

I would also suggest that rather than insinuate that other posters are clueless morons it may be wise to examine the dates of the Okanogan-Wenatchee fire ban and of the trip report.

No one wants to appear like a clueless moron by missing something as obvious as that.
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jbsimm2
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PostTue Sep 01, 2020 11:34 am 
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what happened to the "no spray" rule? some people are just rabble rousers.
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Canyon1
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PostTue Sep 01, 2020 11:44 am 
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First trip was dated August 1985, these were the conditions in OKAWEN NF at the time.  I remember this well having experience with USDA Forest Service. Obviously there was a campfire restriction in effect at the time.

"The 2015 wildfire season was the largest in Washington state history,[5] with more than one million acres (400,000 ha; 1,600 sq mi) burning across the state from June to September.[1] As many as 3,000 firefighters including 800 Washington National Guard members were deployed to fight the fires.[6][7] The 17th Field Artillery Brigade of the United States Army also deployed 200 soldiers from Joint Base Lewis–McChord to help fight the fires.[8]

On August 21, President Barack Obama declared the fires a federal emergency.[9] Because of the enormous extent of the fire activity, for the first time in Washington state history, officials asked residents to volunteer to assist in fighting the wildfires.[9] On August 24, the Washington Department of Natural Resources announced the Okanogan Complex fire had become the largest fire complex in Washington State history.[10]

The Washington State Department of Natural Resources called the season the "worst-ever" in the state's history."

Posted under Trip Reports "Family trip 2020 (14th annual) Oval Lakes Trailhead to Stehekin (8/8-8/15) For 2020 there is a campfire restriction in place. Get it?
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Canyon1
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PostTue Sep 01, 2020 12:25 pm 
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You got it all wrong. Trip report is dated 8/15 here is the Forest Service Order. Kindly note the dates. Suggest you familiarize yourself with Forest Service Orders. I believe the first restrictive order went into effect before this order.


UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
FOREST SERVICE
OKANOGAN-WENATCHEE NATIONAL FOREST
Wenatchee, WA
ORDER NO. 06-17-20-20-17
“STAGE 2” FIRE RESTRICTIONS

Pursuant to 36 CFR § 261.50(a) the following act is prohibited upon National Forest Lands within the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest.  This Order supersedes Order number 06-1720-20-15 signed on July 22, 2020 by Kristin Bail. This Order is effective beginning August 14, 2020 until October 15, 2020, unless terminated earlier.


PROHIBITIONS:

1. Building, maintaining, attending or using a fire, campfire, or stove fire, including briquette fires, and torches. [36 CFR § 261.52 (a)]  Note: Pressurized or bottled liquid fuel stoves, lanterns, or heating devices are permitted, provided such devices are used in areas that are barren or cleared of all overhead and surrounding flammable material within 3 feet of the device.

2. Smoking, except within an enclosed vehicle or building, a developed recreation site, or while stopped in an area at least 3 feet in diameter that is barren or cleared of all flammable material.  [36 CFR § 261.52 (d)]

Additional Information:

a. Note: The use of explosives including exploding targets, incendiary ammunition, and possession and use of fireworks are prohibited year-round on National Forest land in
Washington.  Spark arrestors are required on all internal combustion engines at all times.

b. Campfire is defined as a fire, not within any building, mobile home, or living accommodation mounted on a motor vehicle, which is used for cooking, personal warmth, lighting, ceremonial, or esthetic purposes.

CLOSURE AREA DESCRIPTION:

This prohibition applies to all National Forest System Lands within the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest.

EXEMPTIONS:
Pursuant to 36 CFR § 261.50(e), the following persons are exempt from this order:

1. Persons with a Forest Service permit or Timber Sale Contract, specifically authorizing the otherwise prohibited act or omission.  Permit and contract holders remain accountable to Industrial Fire Precaution Level (IFPL) restrictions as specified.

ORDER NO. 06-17-20-20-17 FIRE RESTRICTIONS
2. Any federal, state, or local officer or member of an organized rescue or fire fighting force in the performance of an official duty.
This prohibition is in addition to the general prohibitions in 36 C.F.R. Part 261, Subpart A.

KRISTIN M. BAIL Forest Supervisor
Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest
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graffiti
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PostTue Sep 01, 2020 12:31 pm 
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Canyon1 wrote:
You got it all wrong. Trip report is dated 8/15 here is the Forest Service Order. Kindly note the dates.

Yup. They left on the 8th and came back on the 15th. It went into effect on the 14th which would have been after the 4th day of their trip which is the day they had the fire. Quite trying to diss them so hard.

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And the meek shall inherit the Earth...um...if that's ok with you.
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Canyon1
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PostTue Sep 01, 2020 12:54 pm 
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You do not live on the east side of Cascades like I do. You location is Olympia which is a big city. You mentality is that of a city dweller (Enjoy the traffic LOL). The threat of wildfire is a real everyday occurance during the dry season. I have been told once already get ready to evacuate. I am not "diss this guy." This is matter of public safety. I trust any west sider reading this chain of emails will get the message to first check out the conditions and call in advance the federal lands agency first to get an update on what the conditions are like. Good bush craft and situational awareness tells you not to build a campfire under these conditions. Simple common sense, but not to city dwellers when visiting wilderness lands. What happened here is a matter of public safety that is beyond your comprehension. Also, this order supersedes another order that also called for campfire restrictions in wilderness areas. Unfortunately, it was deleted by the USDA Forest having this newer order replacing it.  agree.gif Good day signing off.
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BigBrunyon
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PostTue Sep 01, 2020 1:29 pm 
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Canyon1 wrote:
You do not live on the east side of Cascades like I do. You location is Olympia which is a big city. You mentality is that of a city dweller (Enjoy the traffic LOL). The threat of wildfire is a real everyday occurance during the dry season. I have been told once already get ready to evacuate. I am not "diss this guy." This is matter of public safety. I trust any west sider reading this chain of emails will get the message to first check out the conditions and call in advance the federal lands agency first to get an update on what the conditions are like. Good bush craft and situational awareness tells you not to build a campfire under these conditions. Simple common sense, but not to city dwellers when visiting wilderness lands. What happened here is a matter of public safety that is beyond your comprehension. Also, this order supersedes another order that also called for campfire restrictions in wilderness areas. Unfortunately, it was deleted by the USDA Forest having this newer order replacing it.  agree.gif Good day signing off.

If you live on the east side of the cascades, how do you know the mentality of a "city dweller" so thoroughly? Or are ya just stating bias and speculation as fact?

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cascadetraverser
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PostTue Sep 01, 2020 1:51 pm 
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Hmmm; I get why the nickname of this site has become NWhaters. If there was any wish of mine for people to get from this post, it was to encourage young people to get outdoors and it’s interesting that some of you choose to strongly judge my building of the fire instead of pointing out the benefits of bringing teen agers out in the wild. I guess that’s your choice.  I should add none of you were there. It was a very cold night with lots of dew on the ground and I for one trust, after 45 years of traveling the cascades, my sense of when a fire could be dangerous or not.
Perhaps the high flame shot possibly could encourage others to do the same? I think people either make fires or they don’t but it’s a reasonable point....
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Randito
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PostTue Sep 01, 2020 1:56 pm 
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jbsimm2 wrote:
what happened to the "no spray" rule? some people are just rabble rousers.

The no spray rule says that if you see an issue in a TR -- start a new thread in Trail Talk to discuss the issue instead of commenting in the TR itself.        So this thread follows that rule.
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Sep 01, 2020 8:41 pm 
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Even back in the day we never built fires of that size especially on the east side. We specialized in the smallest size fire that you needed usually on bare rock with twigs rather that firewood sized pieces. Saying you are introducing teens to the wilderness compounds the error. As far as the “no spray in TRs” Rule of which I was an early proponent, this discussion is in total compliance. Teach your children well.

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moonspots
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PostTue Sep 01, 2020 8:51 pm 
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Ski wrote:
Fire restriction or no fire restriction, there is no valid reason for building a fire outside in late summer with flames going up exceeding FIVE FEET in height.

I'll be happy to stand by that statement. Now and in the future.

Agreed! And "clueless moron" is being polite, in my view.

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"Out, OUT you demons of Stupidity"! - St Dogbert, patron Saint of Technology
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fourteen410
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PostTue Sep 01, 2020 9:27 pm 
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OP: Why are you picking apart this TR but not the Sulphur Mt. one?

CT: I hope you don't stop contributing TRs because of this. I appreciated your report.
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cascadetraverser
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PostWed Sep 02, 2020 2:19 am 
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This was not a sustained bonfire; it was a contained fire on a cold damp night, where on ONE occasion I placed a dry needle rich branch on it and for 30 seconds a plume rose. But please continue the vitriol as I clearly deserve it.  I think though, I might pass on the opportunity to come back and read more.....
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neek
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PostWed Sep 02, 2020 6:02 am 
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cascadetraverser wrote:
This was not a sustained bonfire; it was a contained fire on a cold damp night, where on ONE occasion I placed a dry needle rich branch on it and for 30 seconds a plume rose. But please continue the vitriol as I clearly deserve it.  I think though, I might pass on the opportunity to come back and read more.....

This is a good strategy, if you have the willpower.  I've managed to pull it off once or twice.  It is too bad there's no "ignore thread" feature.

The only thing you did wrong is post a pic, given how sensitive to fire risk some people are (for good reason), and how quick to judge and condemn others they can be (for not so good of reasons, but unfortunately a current social trend).  It is true that a complete idiot skimming your post might be nudged very slightly in a bad direction.  But anyone who's been paying attention knows you know what you are doing.  Learn lesson, ignore those who are unable to communicate their concerns in a civil manner, move on.
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