Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Logging near Wallace falls
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Sky Hiker
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PostMon Nov 30, 2020 5:54 pm 
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Anyone see the King 5 news story on the logging that might happen near Wallace Falls? There was a person Irene Nash interviewed opposed to it. At the end of the story it mentioned that the timber sale passed.
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Anne Elk
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PostMon Nov 30, 2020 6:06 pm 
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It's here: https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/activists-fight-to-stop-logging-project-near-wallace-falls-state-park-highlighting-the-complex-logging-schools-funding-connection/281-d27dbc06-62b2-474a-a16c-b28f4f7ccf55

Might be tough to stop this.  The Snohomish CC has historically been pro-business and for anything that generates revenue and jobs.  Stumpage fees for education does seem pretty out-dated sometimes; maybe a "silicon tax" would be more appropriate now.

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treeswarper
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PostMon Nov 30, 2020 8:48 pm 
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What is the prescription? 

I was seeing a few marked trees, other than boundary trees, in the brief shots they took of the forest.  Are the trees marked to leave or cut?  I also saw old stumps which indicate the area has been logged in the past. 

Remember the fires that burned this year.  That's the future for the forest if it is "preserved", which means no management.   Fire danger is only discussed in August and September, then it is forgotten for a year.   

It's another NIMBY attack.

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Sky Hiker
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PostMon Nov 30, 2020 9:24 pm 
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What I saw on the report was timber boundry corners. Was hard to tell proximity to the trail. The whole area of the valley is pretty much second growth so it's been logged in the past. My thought is the Gold bar residents don't want to look at more clearcuts on that side.
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PostTue Dec 01, 2020 6:32 am 
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Yes, there were the boundary trees, but there were glimpses inside the boundary of orange ringed trees. 

So, nobody is sure what the prescription is? 

Perhaps residents of areas should think about where they live and what goes on around them.  This is a good example of politics interfering with working forest and the hypocrisy of the residents.   Their housing developments are worse for the ecosystem than a clearcut.  Reforestation of clearcuts is mandatory for it to stay in the timber tax base--housing, roads and parking lots are true deforestation. 

This is part of the formula for such nasty wildfires.  "Preserve" an area with no management and it will burn up quite well.  We apparently can only think about that when the west side of the state is choking on smoke and Oregon's residents are evacuating from similar landscapes. 

Would the residents support a partial cut of some kind?  What is an alternative besides "preservation"?

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PostTue Dec 01, 2020 7:05 am 
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Well not far from here on Heybrook Ridge there was a proposed timber sale across from the town of Index several years back. They were able to get Snohomish county to purchase the land and not log it. There is a similar situation on the south side of the town of Skykomish. Weyerhaeuser owned and set up for logging in a second growth area.
I personally don't mind logging as long as the whole sidehill is not logged at one time. If it is done in pieces where areas are allowed to green up before the next area is logged. If offers a place for vegetation to grow back for animals to feed and also provides a future fire containment area. Renewable resource.
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PostTue Dec 01, 2020 7:11 am 
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The KING-5 video is patently misleading: if that's "mossy old growth", I'm Santa Claus.

this thread belongs in the Stewardship Forum

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PostTue Dec 01, 2020 8:00 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
"Preserve" an area with no management and it will burn up quite well.

Time warp back to the 1930s.   shakehead.gif

The problem here is that we now have about 200 years of solid evidence that this statement is the exact opposite of reality.

https://uwapress.uw.edu/book/9780295975504/forest-dreams-forest-nightmares/

In particular, the region around Wallace Falls is quite capable of growing 1000 year old trees that are not adapted to wildfire.

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PostTue Dec 01, 2020 9:31 am 
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There's earlier discussion of this near the end of this thread

They rolled the former Singletary Sale, which was blocked, into the new sale. The problem I have with the Singletary Unit is that its right on the eastern side of the lower falls and it's going to be highly visible. It's also County land, not DNR, which has excluded it from all the planning that's been done in the past 30 years for the surrounding area.
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treeswarper
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PostTue Dec 01, 2020 10:29 am 
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Sculpin wrote:
In particular, the region around Wallace Falls is quite capable of growing 1000 year old trees that are not adapted to wildfire.

Which means the not adapted trees cannot handle a fire.  Climate is a changing.  Simply go drive and explore along the McKenzie River, east of Eugene, OR to see what happened in that drainage, which was not adapted to fire either. 

All it takes is an east wind and somebody stupid to get a good blaze going.  I don't know exactly what the spark was caused by, but they had a powerful east wind in Western OR over Labor Day.  Tell the burned out residents  about the resilience of the former forest. 

Plus, where are we going to get our boards from if people stop timber sales simply because "It looks bad and I don't want to see it." 

Personally, I think subdivisions look horrible and I don't want to see them so maybe those should be outlawed as well. 

Then we have the buffer concept.  A park must be buffered.  Then the buffer must be buffered and pretty soon we've buffered the whole forest.  Where will the boards come from?  Are you comfortable with the importation of wood (and pests) from countries where the forest practices are unsustainable, but it's OK because it isn't in your line of sight?  What do you offer as a solution?  And then, what is your expertise in Silviculture, forest ecosystems,  and Forest Engineering (logging systems and road planning)?

Let the foresters take care of the forests.   They have on the ground experience and education specializing in....forestry.

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Schroder
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PostTue Dec 01, 2020 10:57 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
Then we have the buffer concept.  A park must be buffered.  Then the buffer must be buffered and pretty soon we've buffered the whole forest.  Where will the boards come from?  Are you comfortable with the importation of wood (and pests) from countries where the forest practices are unsustainable, but it's OK because it isn't in your line of sight?  What do you offer as a solution?  And then, what is your expertise in Silviculture, forest ecosystems,  and Forest Engineering (logging systems and road planning)?

Let the foresters take care of the forests.  They have on the ground experience and education specializing in....forestry.

This is not a forest management issue in the Singletary Unit - it's purely political. The previous County administration stopped the sale and the new council from the other party reversed it.

This is only 160 acres of sensitive area out of about 200 square miles of harvestable DNR timber adjacent to it. To cry about where people are going to get their lumber from is ridiculous.
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Anne Elk
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PostTue Dec 01, 2020 11:39 am 
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Ski wrote:
The KING-5 video is patently misleading: if that's "mossy old growth", I'm Santa Claus.

When people hear "old growth" the association is really big old trees. So, yes, in a news report this is misleading. But I believe the term is at times also applied to 2nd growth forests where the understory renewal (plant life, degree of decay, topsoil characteristics, etc.) has regenerated the conditions similar to what one finds in forests with giant trees.  I got this info from a friend who owns 20 acres that adjoin DNR land near Verlot.  He had some folks out from the Cascade Land Conservancy to look at the conditions in the DNR section, and he said that's what they told him.

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PostTue Dec 01, 2020 12:42 pm 
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^ And this is exactly why I avoid, when at all possible, the use of the term "old growth". The term has been bandied about for so long, and assigned so many different definitions, that it has in fact become meaningless.

"Old Growth" is, by definition, uncompromised temperate rain forest. It's really really old, and at lowland elevations, it's really really big: west-side Olympic Peninsula sitka spruce: 8-10 foot diameter (breast height); Carbon River Road Douglas fir: 5-6 foot diameter (breast height.)
Trees of that size require 200-400 years to reach that size.
What I am seeing in the video is second-growth fir about 15-18 inches (breast height.) Most likely 40-60 years old. When was that unit last cut?

Schroder wrote:
To cry about where people are going to get their lumber from is ridiculous.

Depends upon whether your home has already been built and how old your fence is.

Ten years ago I paid $8.96 for a pressure-treated 8-foot 4" x 4" (Home Depot).
Last week on a fence repair job I paid $15.96 (Home Depot)

Ten years ago I paid $1.96 for a 6-foot 5/8" x 5-1/2" rough-sawn cedar fence board (Home Depot)
Last week on the same fence repair job they were $4.96 (Home Depot)

The cedar, from what I understand, is coming out of BC mills. Second-growth stuff that is milled and marketed while still green. Shrinkage is awful.
No idea where they're cutting the dimensional lumber for the posts.

I'd much prefer the wood be cut in country where we have established guidelines for harvesting, rather than importing it from out of country where they're cutting anything and everything as fast as they possibly can following who-knows-what sort of regulations.

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PostTue Dec 01, 2020 12:49 pm 
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Exactly most of the Skykomish river valley up to 1500 feet elevation is all second growth you can see the old growth line. Further up the valley where there a lot more old growth Hemlock you will find they are rotten in the middle with little to no market value but look good when they are standing there.
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PostTue Dec 01, 2020 1:24 pm 
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Before the nit-pickers start in with arguments about semantics, let me clarify my post above:

My comment concerning "old growth" (uncompromised temperate rain forest) is in the context of Western Washington lowland forest, not Bristlecone Pines in the Sierras, or mangroves in south Texas, or baobob trees in Madagascar.

Second: while I was in the shower it occurred to me that I put up that section of fence in back not 10 years ago, but about 7.
Let's review the numbers again:
$8.96 to $15.96 (for the posts) = 44% net increase at retail price
$1.96 to $4.96 (for the boards) = 60% net increase at retail price

I don't know where you buy your groceries, but I can't think of anything I'm eating that's increased by those margins over the last 7 (or even 10) years. Or the gasoline I buy. Or my phone bill. Or my internet bill. Hell, for that matter, not even the property taxes!

===

sculpin wrote:
"...we now have about 200 years of solid evidence..."

Really? The Wilkes Expedition - the first white explorers that took a close look at the waters of Puget Sound - began in 1838 and ended in 1842. There were no white settlements anywhere on Puget Sound until they broke ground near Steilacoom about 1851.

the page you cited above wrote:
"...the Blue Mountains of northeastern Oregon and southeastern Washington..."

The Blue Mountains of Northeastern Oregon and Southeastern Washington - the Wehanna-Tucannon and Eagle Cap areas, to those of us who've hiked those trails - are a completely different ecosystem than that of lowland Western Washington forests.

More importantly, what we do have evidence of is over 3500 years of repeated burning by Native American tribal peoples all over Washington State, and that includes lowland temperate rain forests. (You can find innumerable citations in the "Let's Burn All the Trees!" thread in the Stewardship Forum. I don't have time right now to list them all.)

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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