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Schroder
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PostTue Dec 01, 2020 12:41 pm 
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You guys are obviously not familiar with the Reiter and Wallace Falls forest at all or all the future planning and trail development that's gone into this place. It's not an old growth issue. It's not an issue whether there's enough timber to cut. I don't think you'll find much opposition to logging 3/4 of the proposed area. It just the Singletary stand that's along the river that's raising the objections.

There were large sawmills a couple of decades ago in Gold Bar, Sultan, Snohomish and Everett. They're all gone now and there's not a single survivor in the valley. They didn't fold up because there was no timber for them. It was all economics.
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Schroder
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PostTue Dec 01, 2020 1:23 pm 
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Ski wrote:
Second: while I was in the shower it occurred to me that I put up that section of fence in back not 10 years ago, but about 7.
Let's review the numbers again:
$8.96 to $15.96 (for the posts) = 44% net increase at retail price
$1.96 to $4.96 (for the boards) = 60% net increase at retail price

I've been remodeling a house for the past three years and my observation is that everything has gone up that much from 10 years ago, not just lumber.  I bought kitchen cabinets - same material and manufacturer as a kitchen we did 10 years ago and the prices were exactly double. Same with vinyl windows.
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treeswarper
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PostTue Dec 01, 2020 5:25 pm 
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160 acres here, 160 acres there, yup, it would never add up to anything....sarcasm.  Meanwhile, how many homes have been built in the past 30 years on how many acres of forest? 

What part of hypocrisy do you not understand?

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PostTue Dec 01, 2020 6:19 pm 
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Schroeder wrote:
"...not familiar with the Reiter and Wallace Falls forest..."

You are correct on that point, sir.
Best management practices established and enforced by DNR require substantial buffer zones along any Class I, II, III, or IV streams, so it's a given that they won't be cutting right down to the water line.
That is not, however, how the argument is being presented in the KING-5 video, unless I am completely misunderstanding what's being said there.

I do find it rather puzzling that one Tribal concern says yes, and the other says no. Those details have not been included here. Certainly the tribes would be concerned about fisheries.

As to the pricing, this house was reworked about 6 years ago due to water damage, but I am not able to make any price comparisons on those items because the majority was covered by an insurance claim.
What I can say is the prices I'm paying for bits and pieces up at ACE (or over at Home Depot) have not increased twofold over the course of the last 7 to 10 years. (Although I don't buy the same stuff over and over - each job I do is different.)

There used to be sawmills all over. There are very few now. They didn't all close for one reason.
My late step-father was a cruiser for one of them up in Renton.

===

And I'll reiterate the point not addressed in any response:
We have effectively exported our timber industry out of country. This is crazy.
The result is that we're paying premium prices and we're getting sub-par product.
More importantly, if "the environment" is truly the concern, why does our environment matter more than the environment of Canada?
We have the more stringent regulations on timber harvesting. They do not.
To claim the concern is "about the environment" while pushing the problem north of the 49th parallel is simply dishonest.

Do the anadromous fish coming down the Fraser matter less than those coming down the Skagit?

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PostWed Dec 02, 2020 9:46 am 
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Maybe Conservation Northwest should get involved to try to prevent the logging near Wallace Falls like they did with Oyster Dome? They still have their lawsuit pending against DNR where they are arguing DNR must take into account recreational and environmental considerations when deciding which land to harvest, and not simply manage the land to maximize returns for the school districts. The lawsuit brought by pro-timber harvest counties (Skagit, ect) against DNR is also still pending (arguing DNR has not harvested enough trees and must now pay damages). Snohomish County is not one of the counties bringing the pro-timber harvest lawsuit.

https://www.conservationnw.org/saved-blanchard-mountain/

https://www.conservationnw.org/to-court-for-state-forests/

http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8031130&highlight=timber+plan
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Schroder
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PostWed Dec 02, 2020 5:13 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
160 acres here, 160 acres there, yup, it would never add up to anything....sarcasm

It's only 160 acres here, not 160 acres there.  There's no hypocrisy in trying to protect one stand from being logged when it's going to be a detriment to the area. I have no problem with all the other areas or even the Eastern portion of this stand and I would even be in favor of thinning in the west part of the State Park, since it's all hemlock that's the same age. The Singletary Unit is older, very diverse in species, and borders the river - not to mention that it's very steep terrain.

This was a dead issue on Singletary until they rolled it into the May Creek sale and rammed it through quickly.

Ski wrote:
We have effectively exported our timber industry out of country. This is crazy.
The result is that we're paying premium prices and we're getting sub-par product.

As for the last part - buy from your local lumber yard. You'll get a lot better product. I recently went to pick up a dozen studs out of the pile in my local yard and it was all clear lumber. I decided to buy the entire sling.

The big companies moved out of here because the trees grow faster near the equator. I was consulting for one of the biggest when they decided to make a strategic move to focus on Uruguay, since they had missed out in Brazil.  Where I worked in southern China, pulpwood was ready to harvest in 2 years.
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PostWed Dec 02, 2020 6:45 pm 
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If that is the case, why can't they withdraw that unit from the sale and proceed with the rest?
How did this become an "all or none" deal? That seems a bit odd, considering that on sale proposals on USFS lands oddball units are withdrawn at the eleventh hour quite often.

Honestly, I think that their buffer requirements along riparian corridors are more than adequate, particularly where they concern Class I and Class II streams.

re: pricing on the materials for that fence repair job:
Yes, I could have driven out of my way to run over to Gray Lumber and most likely gotten better material (although at a higher price, which is a given when dealing with Gray), but the homeowner wanted "right now and cheap." I do what the client asks for - particularly THAT one because in addition to paying instant cash they usually fix me a fabulous lunch too. up.gif

That aside, I have some serious issues with exporting any industry out of country. Whether that's cast-iron forgings for brake cylinders and calipers (most of which went to Canada in the mid-1970s) or fabrication of automotive exhaust components (again, almost all of which went to Canada in the mid-1970s) or automotive seat fabrication and washing machines (almost all of which went to Mexico in the 1970s and 1980s), not making stuff here domestically leaves us in a precarious position should the need arise to start making stuff for more important needs, as happened 78 years ago. There are also the economic considerations: not every man can be a college-educated desk jockey - that's simply not realistic.

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treeswarper
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PostThu Dec 03, 2020 6:17 am 
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Schroder wrote:
It's only 160 acres here, not 160 acres there.  There's no hypocrisy in trying to protect one stand from being logged when it's going to be a detriment to the area. I have no problem with all the other areas or even the Eastern portion of this stand and I would even be in favor of thinning in the west part of the State Park, since it's all hemlock that's the same age. The Singletary Unit is older, very diverse in species, and borders the river - not to mention that it's very steep terrain.

My meaning is that we keep shutting down timber sales--look at the scope of this throughout the past 40 years, and putting what was working forests out of production.  That makes fewer acres of timber production-- more importing--more doghair thickets.

The hypocrisy is the building of home subdivisions on what was formerly forest land and clueless people moving in and then those same people claim to be against any timber harvest.  Look at the comments on facebook any time the Seattle newspaper has an article about a timber sale.  The majority will say something in the way of Stop All Logging.

Then there are the NIMBYs who move to an area where  timber land is nearby and then don't want to ruin their view by having the hillside cut.  Hypocrisy.  They are living on a deforested piece of ground--it was clearcut, bulldozed to a semi-level condition, and then built on and paved.  That's deforestation.  Logging is harvesting and replanting and taking care of the forest throughout the process.

I'm not familiar with the Wallace Falls area, but I am familiar with forestry and have witnessed and been affected by what has gone on in the past.

On steep ground--there have been clearcuts in the Randle area that were nearly vertical.  I cringed when they were logged thinking the land would not recover.  These areas were replanted and now have healthy, happy trees growing like crazy in the units, just like flat land.

The concern I have about steep ground is the logging method used.  Unfortunately, putting a loader on steep slopes, hooking it via winch to a big stump is used more and it isn't as nice on the ground as would be a skyline system.  However, the horrid looking while logged unit above the Huff and Puff is growing back and the skid trail to hell will most likely recover.  The land owner did construct erosion control "waterbars" and quickly had it reforested.

Cable yarding is gentle on the ground when done properly and I doubt the yarder that would be used on second or third growth has the power to yank a log through a hump of ground and plow a ditch through.  Times change, equipment and methods change.

Folks ought to spend more time on the details to help the project go through in a way that will ensure it is done ethically instead of just saying no.  That little blurb of video did not discuss the prescription, logging systems, buffering, months of operation, etc. which are all more important than a lay person declaring that they don't want the trees cut.  Nothing of substance was brought up.  Nothing.

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PostThu Dec 03, 2020 9:13 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
Nothing of substance was brought up.  Nothing.

^ 100% correct.

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PostThu Dec 03, 2020 9:33 am 
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Ski wrote:
treeswarper wrote:
Nothing of substance was brought up.  Nothing.

^ 100% correct.

That's because they don't have the ability to look at it that way or as a renewable resource.
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PostThu Dec 03, 2020 10:01 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
The hypocrisy is the building of home subdivisions on what was formerly forest land and clueless people moving in and then those same people claim to be against any timber harvest.

The land at issue is DNR land. It is not private land. There is no mechanism that allows home construction on DNR land. No one is arguing that you cannot clear cut private land whenever you want, so long as you comply with state and federal environmental laws.

To me, this is not an issue about whether timber harvest is good or bad, or weather we should produce more domestic timber vs import from Canada. It is whether DNR should continue to manage their 3 million acres exclusively to produce revenue for schools or whether a very small portion of those 3 million acres should be managed for recreation and environmental preservation.

When I go mountain biking at Tiger Mountain, which is one of the most popular mountain bike areas on planet earth, I find it silly that DNR still treats that land primarily as a timber bank account rather than manage it for recreation. Places like Tiger and Wallace falls are the closest forest to the 4 million people living in the Puget Sound area (with a few more million to move here in the next 40 years). Why not manage these close proximity forests to serve as a place for the 4 million who live nearby to recreate and escape the hustle and bustle of the Seattle metro area? DNR can still harvest timber from the rest of their state lands, like the large swaths on the Western side of the Olympics, which are far away from population centers.

As the article points out, 5.6% of the public schools budget comes from harvesting timber on DNR land. This is not insignificant but no one is arguing DNR should stop harvest on all DNR land, just places like Tiger, Wallace Falls, Capital Forest, ect. that are very close to large metro areas. In a state with as a dynamic economy as Washington we can surely make up for, say, a 1% reduction in DNR timber revenue for our schools through other funding sources.

The primary argument of Conservation Northwest's lawsuit is that Washington State Constitution states “[a]ll the public lands granted to the state are held in trust for all the people.” What does this sentence mean? Does it mean DNR should continue to manage their lands exclusively to fund public education or is DNR permitted to allocate some lands for recreation and preservation? The Washington Supreme Court will soon decide.
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PostThu Dec 03, 2020 10:14 am 
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^ Well... that might be a good argument were it not for the fact that when those areas you've mentioned were acquired by the State of Washington, they were out in the middle of nowhere and far away from population centers.
That they are now close to population centers is the result of the commercial and residential development that has taken place over the course of decades.
As the population increases - as it doubtless will - DNR managed units will become ever closer to population centers.
The logical and inevitable result will be that you'll be using that same argument when they're putting in subdivisions out on the west side of the Olympic Peninsula at the lower end of the Clearwater River, and contending that those lands should be set aside for mountain bikers and hikers as well.

Rather than allow those with means to fulfill their fantasies about having their own little "cabin in the woods" and building right up to the borders of forest lands, how about we tell them to stay in the cities in high-density housing so we don't have to listen to them whine about having to look at managed timber lands being managed?

Considering that we're in a position here to grow merchantable timber faster and better than almost anywhere on the planet - you cannot grow Douglas Fir any faster than you can in Pacific County, Washington - it seems imprudent not to take advantage of the opportunity to use timber revenue for the benefit of the pubic as a whole.

While it may well be true that the DNR might well only contribute 5.6% of the money for public schools, I'd submit that hikers and mountain bikers and other recreationists contribute far less.

If we had more money for public schools, maybe my property taxes wouldn't keep going up every year, and maybe we wouldn't have such a glut of stupid people in this country.

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Slugman
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PostThu Dec 03, 2020 10:43 am 
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Treeswarper demands that all decisions about forests should be made by people who profit from cutting trees. She claims they are the only experts. Then she claims not cutting right next to the lower falls will cause a cascading effect where all wood will be imported from places with invasive insects.

Her posts add up to utter nonsense, and 100% selfish dishonesty. Her claims of hypocrisy are a hilarious lie. Shame on anyone dumb enough to fall for this gigantic load of crap.

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treeswarper
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PostThu Dec 03, 2020 11:39 am 
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Slugman wrote:
Treeswarper demands that all decisions about forests should be made by people who profit from cutting trees. She claims they are the only experts. Then she claims not cutting right next to the lower falls will cause a cascading effect where all wood will be imported from places with invasive insects.

Her posts add up to utter nonsense, and 100% selfish dishonesty. Her claims of hypocrisy are a hilarious lie. Shame on anyone dumb enough to fall for this gigantic load of crap.


Can you elaborate more on forest management?  What is your opinion?  You love to insult folks and I feel quite sorry for how you get your joy.  Now, go away and read some articles on forestry written by "people who profit from cutting trees" because those folks have a wealth of knowledge about the topic--moreso than the armchair "experts".

Altasnob, the problem is the people who are moving to our state for the way of life we have and then wanting to change the reality to their perception on how things should be.  They are the problem and I do wish we could steer people to another part of the country.  The influx of people is disgusting and hard on resources.

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PostThu Dec 03, 2020 11:52 am 
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^ Honestly, treeswarper, I'm surprised that you even bothered to respond to that.

I thought the part about "profit" was hilarious, especially considering that the project planners and silviculturalists and surveyors and administrators and secretaries involved  in putting sale proposals together are all salaried employees, and those involved who actually stand to "profit" have effectively no say-so at all regarding which tree gets cut and which doesn't.

But hey, it was good for a laugh. up.gif

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