Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Crystal Mountain, Alterra, and USFS Leases
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altasnob
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altasnob
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PostFri Apr 08, 2022 9:33 am 
Yes, other non-Alterra ski areas operating on National Forests have recently started charging for parking. So I don't credit Alterra exclusively for coming up with this pay for parking idea. I have read rumors of Mt. Baker starting to charge non-ticket buyers for parking because every year there are more and more backcountry skiers there. And you know Vail/Stevens is looking at Crystal with watchful eyes. Paying for parking at Alta, Snowbird, and Jackson Hole is all a relatively new thing. I think Alta's parking lots, like Crystal, are on Forest Service land. Snowbird leases some of their land from the Forest Service but I know they own some of the land as well (old mining claims they purchased). I think most people would have no problem paying something like $5 to $10 a day to park. Or an annual snow park for, say, $30. That's what you have to pay the government to park at Oregon ski areas (government snow park required). What I don't like about Crystal's plan is I don't trust them (Alterra). They have come up with a brilliant revenue generating scheme. And they will use that scheme to encourage people to purchase their most expensive products (season passes). And they will tell people it's all about reducing congestion and paying for the bus but their books aren't open to the public (so how do we know they are telling the truth). The fact they charge for parking at the end of the season when it isn't busy and the bus is not running makes me doubt their honesty. There are National Forest trailheads that start in Crystal's leased parking lots that pre-date Crystal ski area. What happens when Crystal decides to start charging for parking in the summer as well (I don't think there is anything, legally, preventing them from doing this). Paid parking up there in the summer doesn't seem that far fetched once the hotel and zip line course is built. I've contacted the Forest Service with my concerns and I would encourage others as well. This is a new development and I would like to see more discussion (news articles, law review articles, ect) of the concept of private companies charging people to park on Forest Service land. I don't expect the Forest Service to step in and stop Crystal from doing this. But the more people who voice their concerns the better chance the Forest Service does actually put in some limitations on charging for parking when it is time for Crystal to renew their permit in 2032.

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kw
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PostSat Apr 09, 2022 7:56 pm 
altasnob wrote:
Crystal is amongst the first and not surprisingly, their private equity Alterra owned partner, Snowbasin, in Utah, has also started charging for parking (also operating on Forest Service land).
Somewhat semantics, but to be clear Snowbasin is not owned by Alterra, rather it's owned by the same family that owns Sun Valley and derives their wealth from Sinclair Oil.

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altasnob
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PostSat Apr 09, 2022 8:39 pm 
Sorry, I meant Solitude, not Snowbasin.

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Randito
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PostSat Apr 09, 2022 9:31 pm 
Why do Americans think they have a god given right to free parking. Even in the summer you need a parking pass to park at USFS trailheads. The fee is modest, $30 per year. Having to pay more to park in the winter in a location that would have many feet of snow without plowing seems reasonable to me.

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altasnob
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PostSat Apr 09, 2022 10:11 pm 
I have no problem paying the government for parking on government land. And I have no problem paying the fee the government determines is appropriate because I know public record laws and general democratic principles allow the public to audit the government's decision. What I don't like is the government leasing out the public's land to a private company and giving that private company carte blanche to charge whatever they want for parking to whomever they want. Here's examples of what various governments charge for parking on government land: Oregon Snow Park: annual $25, daily $4 NW Forest Pass: annual $30 Discover Pass: annual $35, daily $11.50 If you wanted to go to Crystal today (Saturday) to lift ski, back country ski, snow shoe, or hike on government land and were traveling with less than four people you would pay $30 to park for the single day with no annual option. That's $30 to park on the public's land and to recreate on the public's land. That $30 goes into the coffers of a multi-national private equity firm valued at an estimated $4 billion dollars and enriches those private investors, not the public. This doesn't bother you Randy?

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Randito
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PostSat Apr 09, 2022 11:40 pm 
You forgot washington state sno-park permits @$120 per year. Crystal's parking fees are on weekends, when they also provide free bus service from Enumclaw. If you feel this arrangement is unreasonable, hopefully you have contacted the Enumclaw ranger district to complain. Public feedback can effect policy decisions. Enumclaw Office Location: 450 Roosevelt Avenue E Enumclaw, WA 98022 Operating Hours: current hours Phone Number: (360) 825-6585

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Malachai Constant
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PostSun Apr 10, 2022 8:28 am 
BTW the Whistler passes are also good at Stevens, Vail, Stowe, Park City, etc for some of the days.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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altasnob
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PostSun Apr 10, 2022 9:08 pm 
Randito wrote:
You forgot washington state sno-park permits @$120 per year.
I didn't include Washington snow park fees because those fees cover the cost of grooming cross country and snowmobile trails, not just maintaining and plowing a parking lot.
Randito wrote:
Crystal's parking fees are on weekends, when they also provide free bus service from Enumclaw.
The parking fees are on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, not just the weekends. And the free bus stopped running on April 3rd. Crystal is open until at least May 1st this year. So there are 12 days in April and May this year where one has to pay for parking but the bus is not an option. And the bus doesn't run early season either. Also note, Crystal does not specifically say that backcountry skiers can take the free bus. They don't check for a lift ticket for the bus, but no where on Crystal's website does it say, or encourage, non-paying guests to take the bus. It's just a matter of time before Crystal requires proof of lift ticket to ride the bus.
Randito wrote:
If you feel this arrangement is unreasonable, hopefully you have contacted the Enumclaw ranger district to complain.
I've sent a letter and email to Jody Weil, Forest Supervisor-Mt. Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest, and Brian McNeil, who is the Forest Service employee in charge of Crystal's special use permit. I also emailed Frank Deberry, President of Crystal. And I contacted Patty Murry, Maria Cantwell, and Kim Schrier. I am posting about this topic on NWhikers is to make others aware of what is going on in hopes that they may also contact the Forest Service. Unlike other areas in the US, there is no backcountry skier advocacy group in Washington and issues like this demonstrate why we need one.

cascadeclimber
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Randito
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PostSun Apr 10, 2022 11:45 pm 
altasnob wrote:
Randito wrote:
You forgot washington state sno-park permits @$120 per year.
I didn't include Washington snow park fees because those fees cover the cost of grooming cross country and snowmobile trails, not just maintaining and plowing a parking lot.
The non-grroomed sno-park fee is $50. -- which you also forgot to mention. Oregon sno-park fees are $25 -- but lift served skiers also have to purchase and display a sno-park permit to park in almost all ski area parking lots. So the total revenue in the Oregon sno-park system is significantly higher. Washintonians are more used to having the cost of snow removal hidden is the cost of lift tickets --- rather than paying for it directly. The cost of plowing the highways leading to Crystal, Mt Baker and Mission Ridge -- roads that would not need to be plowed if there was no ski area is paid by the state -- The sales tax revenue on the sale of lift tickets / seasons passes and beer at the ski area probably does a good job of covering those costs. Personally -- I would greatly prefer Oregon's system, where everyone pays directly for the cost of providing plowed parking lots -- independent of whether they are buying a lift ticket / season's pass or buying beer in the ski area lodge.

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altasnob
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PostMon Apr 11, 2022 7:08 am 
Randito wrote:
Washintonians are more used to having the cost of snow removal hidden is the cost of lift tickets --- rather than paying for it directly.
True, snow removal of the parking lot is hidden in the cost of the lift ticket. Just like snow removal and summer maintenance of the highway leading to Crystal is hidden in the cost of our tax bill. But why since since 1962 when Crystal was founded until 2021 has Crystal not had to charge for parking? Why do locally owned resorts such as Mt. Baker and White Pass not have to charge for parking? Shortly after Crystal was purchased by the multi-billion dollar Alterra the bean counters decided now was the time to start charging for parking. But it's not uniform. If you purchase a $1,700 season pass at Crystal you do not need to pay for parking. It's clear to me Crystal is not just trying to be "transparent" with the parking lot snow removal costs and separate it out from the $200 lift ticket costs. They a) want a cash cow money genertor, b) want to steer people to their most expensive product, the $1,700 season pass that includes parking, and most importantly, c) get rid of all those pesky backcountry skiers and drive them all to Snoqualmie Pass and Stevens Pass (well, until Boyne and Vail follow Crystal's lead and start charging for parking too). Crystal wants to normalize paying for parking and wants the public to say, gee, aren't they a swell company charging us $200 for a lift ticket and another $30 to park on Forest Service land. There should be an alternative to this publicly subsidized corporate greed and there is-hike for your turns. But the corporate power is obviously too hard to fight.

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Randito
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PostMon Apr 11, 2022 8:04 am 
altasnob wrote:
But why since since 1962 when Crystal was founded until 2021 has Crystal not had to charge for parking?
Limited parking at ski areas in WA has been a growing issue for years. COVID accelerated the issue. The population has more than doubled since 1962, so I don't find it particularly surprising that parking is harder to come by. Also street parking was free in Seattle back in 1962 , so a lot has changed since then. Why do you think you have an inalienable right to free parking ?

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altasnob
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PostMon Apr 11, 2022 8:50 am 
I never said I have a right to free parking. I would be happy if the government took over Crystal's lots and administered whatever fee they think is appropriate, but that's never going to happen. And speaking of street parking in Seattle, does Seattle lease out their land to private companies and then let private companies charge whatever they want for parking and charge different users different amounts? You have private parking lots in Seattle, and they can charge whatever they want. But street parking is owned and operated by the city. And the city (and citizens) derive the benefits of this. I would have less of a problem with Crystal charging for parking if they charge all users the same (offer a daily and annual rate that ALL users have the opportunity to purchase). Season pass holders have leverage in this equation; they can take their business somewhere else if Crystal's fees are too high compared to the competition. Backcountry skiers have no leverage. It is up to the Forest Service to protect backcountry skiers' interests. When Crystal became a ski area in 1962 there was no backcountry skiing. I started backcountry skiing in the area in 2005/06, and there were very few backcountry skiers. That number has steadily increased and will steadily increase going forward with $200+ lift tickets and $1,700 season passes. More and more people are questioning the wisdom of spending huge amounts on lift tickets only to stand in lift lines. Crystal knows this, and knows they are losing paying customers to the backcountry. So Crystal has a financial incentive to discourage backcountry skiing. I fear the Forest Service doesn't give backcountry skiers enough consideration because the Forest Service doesn't make money off these users (the Forest Service gets a cut of money Crystal makes from lift tickets). And if you think it is preposterous that Forest Service officials managing Crystal might be in cahoots with Crystal, here's some reading for you.

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cascadeclimber
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PostMon Apr 11, 2022 9:12 am 
Randito wrote:
Why do you think you have an inalienable right to free parking ?
I guess I feel like parking on wild public land should be free, yes. Downtown Seattle is one thing. Trailheads, including those that are adjacent to land leased to for-profit companies for their for-profit activities, is something else. The two issues that are alarming to me are access and cost of access. - Northwest Forest Pass - Discover Pass - Mount Rainier park pass - Mount Rainier climbing pass - St. Helens fee (which goes to a nebulous (IMO) organization that has botched the registration process multiple times - Sno-park pass - Mt. Adams "climbing activity" pass All of this adds up to a not small amount of money annually. Now if I want to park at the upper Alpental lot I have to buy a season lift ticket. Back country ski from Crystal Mountain Boulevard? Pay to park or ride the COVID bus from Enumclaw on someone else's schedule. And *none* of it, save the MORA pass (which was $5 for over 100 years) existed when I started climbing in the early 90s. How on earth have we gone for $5/year for a hundred years to hundreds of dollars per year...in just 25 years? Start with all the entirely unnecessary structures that have been built and now have to be maintained. All those gates on parking lots (Si, Mailbox, Teneriffe) simply didn't exist so we weren't paying someone to unlock and lock all of them every day. The ambulance and armed LEOs that are now required to open the road past Longmire, a million dollar rebuild of structures at Camp Muir, largely for for-profit companies. The illegal blasting in a Wilderness zone to build an unnecessary new landing pad (and remove camping space) at Camp Schurman. The countless trailheads that have been modified to meet the minimum requirement for a Discover or NW Forest pass to be required...paying people to drive to them just to write tickets. It's insane to me.

If not now, when?
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cascadeclimber
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PostMon Apr 11, 2022 9:21 am 
altasnob wrote:
And if you think it is preposterous that Forest Service officials managing Crystal might be in cahoots with Crystal, here's some reading for you.
The last time I forced disclosure, 40% of the gross guide service revenue went directly to Mount Rainier National Park. The park sets the fee, sets the quotas, and deposits the money. So if you are at Muir in the summer wondering why the guide services are allowed to erect a semi-permanent illegal structure outside the Muir Wilderness exclusion zone, violate the max party size law, and install illegal ladders on what they consider "their route", this is why.

If not now, when?
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Randito
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PostMon Apr 11, 2022 9:31 am 
altasnob wrote:
When Crystal became a ski area in 1962 there was no backcountry skiing.
It seems you are unaware of the long history of ski touring in the PNW -- people have be "backcountry skiing" in the region since the 1920s. "Northwest Ski Trails" was written by Ted Mueller and published in 1968. It provides route information for many ski tours in the region. Long out of print and hard to find. http://www.alpenglow.org/ski-history/notes/book/mueller-1968.html
Quote:
Crystal Mountain: Corral Pass, Norse Peak, Campbell and Silver Basins, Threeway Peak Loop, Crystal to Cayuse Traverse, Crystal Lake Basin
I started ski touring in 1970. Ski toured mostly around Snoqualmie Pass, but also at Mt Rainier, Crystal, White Pass, Goat Rocks, The Enchantments and other places.

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