Forum Index > Trail Talk > Colorado SAR: Rescue Helicopters Are Not An Uber
Previous :: Next Topic  
Author Message
RumiDude
Marmota olympus



Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 2978 | TRs
Location: Port Angeles
RumiDude
  Top

Marmota olympus
PostSun Jan 03, 2021 4:07 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
BigBrunyon wrote:
This approach allows for more technical climbs, no real worries if you get in over your head, just call em up.

Well this brings up an important point. (Yea I know, can't believe I'm saying that bout something BigBrunyon wrote.) Have we all got too accustomed to having SAR at our beck and call, especially with the proliferation of devices like inReach, SPOT, and PLBs? It has been argued that these devices don't make people more prone to take risks getting in over their heads, usually in the form of a personal declaration. But I remain sceptical. As a matter of fact I don't see how it doesn't affect our decision making towards greater risk.

I think about this because I just purchased an inReach Mini, after resiting carrying an emergency device for a long time. Even now I wonder if I will subconsciously take more risk than without it. After all, if I write a check with my head that my ass can't cash, I got that emergency button.

Anyway, I thought it was enlightening to see the criteria for a helo rescue vs a ground rescue.

Rumi

--------------
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Cyclopath
Faster than light



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 4879 | TRs
Location: Seattle
Cyclopath
  Top

Faster than light
PostSun Jan 03, 2021 4:30 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
RumiDude wrote:
As a matter of fact I don't see how it doesn't affect our decision making towards greater risk.

Ever since I turned 40, I can't remember what I had for breakfast anymore.  Generally when I'm up in the mountains I don't remember which day pack my PLB is in.

Let's look at this from the other direction.  You're telling me you think most people will look at something sketchy, know they could cause themselves terrible pain and maybe an injury that will haunt them for the rest of their lives, and they'll say "let's do it, as long as I don't break both hands I can press the SOS button and hope I make it through the night until my rescue shows up tomorrow." Now I'm skeptical.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Cyclopath
Faster than light



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 4879 | TRs
Location: Seattle
Cyclopath
  Top

Faster than light
PostSun Jan 03, 2021 4:32 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

-Socrates, 440 BC

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Chief Joseph
Member
Member


Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 5832 | TRs
Location: What Verlot Forgot.
Chief Joseph
  Top

Member
PostSun Jan 03, 2021 4:50 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
If someone's judgement is affected by having an emergency beacon, they might not even realize it, since their subconscious mind may come into play. So, I think it can happen to some people and not to others, depending upon ones mindset and level of awareness.

--------------
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
neek
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Sep 2011
Posts: 1512 | TRs
Location: Seattle, WA
neek
  Top

Member
PostSun Jan 03, 2021 5:04 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Cyclopath wrote:
Generally when I'm up in the mountains I don't remember which day pack my PLB is in.

I'm older than you and know exactly when I'm carrying my PLB.  Whether risk compensation applies to hikers I don't have much to add that hasn't been covered in previous threads.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Chief Joseph
Member
Member


Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 5832 | TRs
Location: What Verlot Forgot.
Chief Joseph
  Top

Member
PostSun Jan 03, 2021 6:21 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
If I ever need to be rescued, I want this guy on the job... "He asked his wife to hold his phone and beer, jumped over the fence and ran onto the beach"....Lol, "Hold my Beer!".


https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/03/us/mikey-wright-hawaii-surf-rescue-trnd/index.html

His wife didn't appear as confident and ran after him, not sure why and hopefully didn't spill his beer!

--------------
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski
><((((°>



Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 11589 | TRs
Location: tacoma
Ski
  Top

><((((°>
PostSun Jan 03, 2021 6:23 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Rumi wrote:
"...if I write a check with my head that my ass can't cash, I got that emergency button."

Part of the thrill of backpacking and hiking in the hinterlands without the aid of cellular telephones, GPS, "InReach", PLBs, or other fancy-schantzy gizmos was embracing the brutal reality that my becoming injured or lost would leave me entirely dependent upon my own resources.

If you have never experienced the visceral "gut wrenching fear" upon realizing you're completely lost on top of four feet of snow under a completely white sky 5000 feet above sea level in only a cotton t-shirt and shorts, with no map or compass, you would never understand or know that feeling.

This "selfie" was taken about 30 minutes before a front blew in from the west, completely blanketed the sky, causing me to walk around in a great big circle only to find my own footprints.

craggy-peak-trail-062695
craggy-peak-trail-062695

--------------
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Chief Joseph
Member
Member


Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 5832 | TRs
Location: What Verlot Forgot.
Chief Joseph
  Top

Member
PostSun Jan 03, 2021 6:36 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski, did that happen to be on June 21st, Naked Hiking Day? If so you were over-dressed but not by much.

I agree with you, there is little chance I will ever carry an emergency beacon. I always have a compass and usually a map and if I have my phone, an altimeter, etc.

--------------
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Cyclopath
Faster than light



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 4879 | TRs
Location: Seattle
Cyclopath
  Top

Faster than light
PostSun Jan 03, 2021 6:53 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski wrote:
craggy-peak-trail-062695
craggy-peak-trail-062695

I met you in person a year ago at the nwhikers social.  You haven't asked a day since that picture was taken.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Cyclopath
Faster than light



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 4879 | TRs
Location: Seattle
Cyclopath
  Top

Faster than light
PostSun Jan 03, 2021 6:57 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
neek wrote:
Cyclopath wrote:
Generally when I'm up in the mountains I don't remember which day pack my PLB is in.

I'm older than you and know exactly when I'm carrying my PLB.  Whether risk compensation applies to hikers I don't have much to add that hasn't been covered in previous threads.

I did a hike on Table Mountain in October or November.  Was having a great time, decided to extend the loop I was doing.  About two hours before sunset it was clear I was going to be hiking out in the dark.  I spent the rest of the hike wondering if my bright light was in this pack or the other one.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Slugman
It’s a Slugfest!



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 16611 | TRs

Slugman
  Top

It’s a Slugfest!
PostSun Jan 03, 2021 7:21 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
If someone wants to slander several hundred million people, they will have to do better than “a handful of people were cavalier about SAR”. Yes, everyone is lazy and entitled based on a few pathetic examples. Ridiculous.

--------------
“The jerking motion of a knee does not reflect the operation of a mind”  Slugman, January 24th 2020
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Randito
Snarky Member



Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 7818 | TRs
Location: Bellevue at the moment.
Randito
  Top

Snarky Member
PostSun Jan 03, 2021 7:25 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
RumiDude wrote:
Have we all got too accustomed to having SAR at our beck and call, especially with the proliferation of devices like inReach

Speaking for myself no.   I got an InReach pretty much when they came out,  but that was in lieu of renting a satellite phone for multi-day ski touring trips with groups.

Within my own personal experience,  I've never been injured suffiently to require evac,  however I have twice come across injured people, applied 1st aid and summoned search and rescue.  This was in the pre-sat phone, pre-cell-phone era, so summoning SAR involved running out to civilization.    After these experiences,  the whole idea of SAR being "at your beck and call" is ridiculously uninformed.   The amount of time required for SAR volunteers to muster, travel to the trailheads and get to the injured person's position was far far longer than I expected the 1st time this happened to me.   

One should be prepared to wait for a full day before SAR reaches an injured person.

Satellite communications only shortens the 1st aspect of summoning SAR.    It does nothing to speed up the process once SAR knows of an incident.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Chief Joseph
Member
Member


Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 5832 | TRs
Location: What Verlot Forgot.
Chief Joseph
  Top

Member
PostSun Jan 03, 2021 7:40 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Slugman wrote:
If someone wants to slander several hundred million people, they will have to do better than “a handful of people were cavalier about SAR”. Yes, everyone is lazy and entitled based on a few pathetic examples. Ridiculous.

Equally ridiculous to be so "Nit picky. I assume you are referring to my post here...

Chief Joseph wrote:
People in this country are too soft and entitled, I still think they should either let the rescuers do their job or stay there and fend for themselves. Not much "Tough Love" happening these days and it shows

Ok, miss picky sluggo, just for you I will re-phrase my comment...


Many people in this country are too soft and entitled, I still think they should either let the rescuers do their job or stay there and fend for themselves. Not much "Tough Love" happening these days and it shows.

Now I suppose you want me to tell you just how many?  rolleyes.gif  Some people really like to argue semantics...save us some trouble and learn to "read between the lines".  waah.gif

--------------
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
RumiDude
Marmota olympus



Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 2978 | TRs
Location: Port Angeles
RumiDude
  Top

Marmota olympus
PostSun Jan 03, 2021 9:03 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Cyclopath wrote:
Let's look at this from the other direction.  You're telling me you think most people will look at something sketchy, know they could cause themselves terrible pain and maybe an injury that will haunt them for the rest of their lives, and they'll say "let's do it, as long as I don't break both hands I can press the SOS button and hope I make it through the night until my rescue shows up tomorrow." Now I'm skeptical.

You are skeptical because you wrote your own scenario. That is known as a strawman argument.


What I wrote was how our knowledge works in our subconscious. By definition that means we are not consciously aware of how that knowledge shapes our decision making. If that was not clear in my post above, then let me clarify here. I have heard and even read on this form individuals say that these devices have not made them more likely to do things that they would not do if they didn't have anemergency device. I am saying that is most likely not true, despite these resolute pronouncements. And there are all sort of risks associated with backpacking besides the "hold my beer" ones. These include the type and amount of gear one takes, the amount of new/unknown likely encountered, how remote, pace of travel, contents of FAK, amount of food, etc.

As I mentioned above, I recently purchased an inReach Mini after years of refusing to get one. I got it because of my vision problem. And despite that I still have second thoughts about getting it.  Not all of that regret is centered on just the idea of subconsciously taking more risk than I would otherwise, though that is part of it. Another part is simply the possibility of communicating with others. And related to the whole thing is that it's another thing to do that takes me out of being in the present while in the backcountry. That final issue is closely related to my decision to take few photos while out on backcountry trips.

Anyway, I hope this clears up any misconceptions about what I was meaning by PLBs, inReach, and SPOT deices encouraging more risk. I think many in SAR think that the advances in communication and satelite emergency devices has caused an uptick in overall emergencies in the backcountry.

Rumi

--------------
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist



Joined: 07 Sep 2018
Posts: 1382 | TRs
Location: Seattle
Anne Elk
  Top

BrontosaurusTheorist
PostSun Jan 03, 2021 9:07 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Chief Joseph wrote:
Many people in this country are too soft and entitled, I still think they should either let the rescuers do their job or stay there and fend for themselves. Not much "Tough Love" happening these days and it shows. Now I suppose you want me to tell you just how many?  Some people really like to argue semantics...

Sweeping generalizations tend to get folks riled up, but sometimes they're ... on point.  Earlier in this thread I referred to the "Beartooth Panic" op-ed piece by Montana SAR guy Tom Vines.  The whole article is copied in my post on this page of the thread on the 2018 Vesper Peak missing hiker saga.

Arguments have been made here to the effect that people are engaging in riskier behavior b/c they now have cell phones and various PLB devices. Vines agrees but also says that SAR was getting a lot of calls from " ... persons with frivolous demands, who often are not in true distress, but are just tired ... search and rescue personnel here and all across North America are facing a frustrating and dispiriting challenge -- not from any physical emergency, but from a decaying of our national character. "  And he was complaining in '97!   tongue.gif 

One of our own SAR guys has another take - in the thread on PLBs and hiking solo, Schroder said, " ...if you're going solo in the backcountry off-trail and don't have the means to be located with the technology that's available today, you are irresponsible. The easy solution also is to find a friend."

--------------
"There are yahoos out there.  It’s why we can’t have nice things."  - Tom Mahood
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
   All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Forum Index > Trail Talk > Colorado SAR: Rescue Helicopters Are Not An Uber
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
   Use Disclaimer Powered by phpBB Privacy Policy