Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Trump Opens Spotted Owl Habitat in the PNW to Timber Harvesting
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Ski
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PostThu Jan 14, 2021 7:54 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
The NWFP has been a joke when it comes to producing timber.

Former USFS Chief Jack Ward Thomas said almost 20 years ago that it was "unsustainable" and doomed to fail.
We should be surprised that it didn't work? lol.gif

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gb
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PostThu Jan 14, 2021 7:55 pm 
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Fat chance, just being an A&*^%G
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Brian R
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PostFri Jan 15, 2021 9:14 am 
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Ski wrote:
Executive orders are easily brushed aside by a signature from a succeeding Chief Executive.


Like DACA? Turns out there is a whole lot of legal undone to get done after any brand of coward leaves office. And even then, a friendly black robe might codify what should have been ruled unlawful.
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brineal
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PostFri Jan 15, 2021 2:50 pm 
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Pretty sure the article admits that owl population is in decline now despite protections.  Also the competition with other owl species.  There is still plenty of forest, no one has seen the timber cutting plan, when a tree is cut down owls do not wither and die, they find a new tree.
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Chief Joseph
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PostFri Jan 15, 2021 2:58 pm 
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brineal wrote:
Pretty sure the article admits that owl population is in decline now despite protections.  Also the competition with other owl species.  There is still plenty of forest, no one has seen the timber cutting plan, when a tree is cut down owls do not wither and die, they find a new tree.

No way, that makes way to much sense and does not stir up controversy!

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treeswarper
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PostFri Jan 15, 2021 3:02 pm 
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Chief Joseph wrote:
brineal wrote:
Pretty sure the article admits that owl population is in decline now despite protections.  Also the competition with other owl species.  There is still plenty of forest, no one has seen the timber cutting plan, when a tree is cut down owls do not wither and die, they find a new tree.

No way, that makes way to much sense and does not stir up controversy!

Yup.

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brineal
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PostFri Jan 15, 2021 3:18 pm 
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Chief Joseph wrote:
brineal wrote:
Pretty sure the article admits that owl population is in decline now despite protections.  Also the competition with other owl species.  There is still plenty of forest, no one has seen the timber cutting plan, when a tree is cut down owls do not wither and die, they find a new tree.

No way, that makes way to much sense and does not stir up controversy!

This is the benefit of going just above the brain stem when analyzing such topics.
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Kim Brown
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PostFri Jan 15, 2021 3:40 pm 
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brineal wrote:
Chief Joseph wrote:
brineal wrote:
Pretty sure the article admits that owl population is in decline now despite protections.  Also the competition with other owl species.  There is still plenty of forest, no one has seen the timber cutting plan, when a tree is cut down owls do not wither and die, they find a new tree.

No way, that makes way to much sense and does not stir up controversy!

This is the benefit of going just above the brain stem when analyzing such topics.

Northern Spotted Owls require old growth to survive; so you're right that if a tree is cut, they find a new tree. But it needs to be a snag, high up, and in a very large stand of old growth forest.

Some knowledge for ya to pack into that brain stem.

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brineal
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PostFri Jan 15, 2021 3:44 pm 
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Kim Brown wrote:
brineal wrote:
Chief Joseph wrote:
brineal wrote:
Pretty sure the article admits that owl population is in decline now despite protections.  Also the competition with other owl species.  There is still plenty of forest, no one has seen the timber cutting plan, when a tree is cut down owls do not wither and die, they find a new tree.

No way, that makes way to much sense and does not stir up controversy!

This is the benefit of going just above the brain stem when analyzing such topics.

Northern Spotted Owls require old growth to survive; so you're right that if a tree is cut, they find a new tree. But it needs to be a snag, high up, and in a very large stand of old growth forest.

Some knowledge for ya to pack into that brain stem.

This one believes that owls will give up on life and perish if the real estate doesn't fit their fancy. Wow.
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gb
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PostFri Jan 15, 2021 5:40 pm 
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brineal wrote:
Kim Brown wrote:
brineal wrote:
Chief Joseph wrote:
brineal wrote:
Pretty sure the article admits that owl population is in decline now despite protections.  Also the competition with other owl species.  There is still plenty of forest, no one has seen the timber cutting plan, when a tree is cut down owls do not wither and die, they find a new tree.

No way, that makes way to much sense and does not stir up controversy!

This is the benefit of going just above the brain stem when analyzing such topics.

Northern Spotted Owls require old growth to survive; so you're right that if a tree is cut, they find a new tree. But it needs to be a snag, high up, and in a very large stand of old growth forest.

Some knowledge for ya to pack into that brain stem.

This one believes that owls will give up on life and perish if the real estate doesn't fit their fancy. Wow.

Belief is an entirely different thing than science or knowledge.....
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Kim Brown
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PostFri Jan 15, 2021 5:45 pm 
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brineal wrote:
This one believes that owls will give up on life and perish if the real estate doesn't fit their fancy. Wow.

It's science.

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treeswarper
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PostFri Jan 15, 2021 5:54 pm 
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I do not recall snags ever being a requirement.  Nice to have, yes, but a must have???

There are examples out there of the owls living in second growth.  I have no time to see if any made it onto the internet, as that was before such a thing was common.

I know of a Forester, who was an experienced birder reporting to wildlife bios about seeing spotted owls in areas where, since it did not meet the perceived notion of what the owls needed for habitat, were ignored.  It's kind of the way it is for  wildlife biologists, if they don't see it, it doesn't exist.

That makes it worthless to report seeing wildlife, so it isn't done.  You figure out what that means.

Anyway, no harvest of the legendary "Last of the Ancient Old Growth" is going to happen.  For the umpteenth millionth time, I will point out that the majority of lumber mills cannot take large diameter logs and will not retool for it because there is a more reliable supply of second and third growth timber.

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Chief Joseph
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PostFri Jan 15, 2021 7:16 pm 
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^^^^Another post that makes way too much sense! I suppose the mods will soon lock this thread because a couple of people disagree? Kumbaya my friends...  rolleyes.gif

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IanB
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PostFri Jan 15, 2021 7:30 pm 
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The competition with the Spotted is its cousin the Barred.  Barred are more aggressive and adaptable, and have fully taken over the lowland (and highly altered) habitat in the Puget Sound lowlands.  The Spotted needs large tracts of undisturbed habitat.  That the Barreds do not prefer old-growth, or maturing second growth, forest at elevation allows the Spotteds that refuge.

Spotted numbers continue to decline, because there probably isn't really enough old growth to sustain them.  The answer is that more maturing second growth has to be left alone to expand the available habitat, and to help insulate the Spotteds from the Barreds until their numbers could hopefully stabilize.

And it really isn't about one species of owl alone.  The other high-profile species that can't survive without old growth is the Marbled Murrelet.  Their very specific need for nesting is branches wide enough, and with deep enough moss, that eggs and chicks don't fall off.  If suitable trees are not available, nesting success declines.  This is another way of saying that they "wither and die" as a species.

But it really isn't about two birds.  It's about a type of habitat that supports all number of less photogenic species of plants, mammals, and insects.  A habitat that sequesters carbon, and provides clean air and water for salmon, and orcas, and ultimately for us - because we need those things too.

What it is about is agreeing, as a society and as a species, that there is an intrinsic value in retaining habitats that we have not compromised with an insatiable desire for consumption.  If we cannot do that, we choose to live on the precarious edge, supported only by the thinnest of margins.  When a wholly degraded biome has finally been pushed to the breaking point and fails us through disease and famine, we will have only ourselves to blame.

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brineal
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PostFri Jan 15, 2021 9:19 pm 
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Kim Brown wrote:
brineal wrote:
This one believes that owls will give up on life and perish if the real estate doesn't fit their fancy. Wow.

It's science.

I think your verb is slightly too strong.  Fish REQUIRE water to survive; owls, turns out REQUIRE air.  Owls do not REQUIRE old growth while they may PREFER it.  Post the research that says that the species can only survive in an old growth habitat.
I used the tissue above my brain stem to review the MAPS of the habitat areas and I noticed that many of the areas are old growth and many of the areas are not.  It appears there is plentiful opportunity to log second and third growth forest which would be LOGICAL.
Not many want to log old growth, it is expensive, time consuming and costly to get the wood on the ground, time consuming and costly to move to the mill and there are no mills that come to mind that can handle much more than a 3’ diameter log around our parts.  Many if not most  loggers would rather machine harvest 30 some odd year forest quickly and easily to maximize their return.
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