Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Trump Opens Spotted Owl Habitat in the PNW to Timber Harvesting
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treeswarper
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PostThu Jan 21, 2021 6:26 am 
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Another point to make about "cutting all the old growth".  The pockets of old growth that I am familiar with are still there for one main reason.  The trees are in places that are hard to get to, which made/makes it uneconomical to go there.  Otherwise, they'd have been logged.

This is in National Forests, not parks.

Go out and look some time.

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timberghost
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PostThu Jan 21, 2021 9:05 am 
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Near me the old growth trees contain a lot of hemlock. A majority of these trees rotten inside with the outer core being alive. Most times at the landings you will see large hallowed out hemlock trees left behind because there is little economic value except for pulp. Should the trees be cut down and reforested with younger, stronger trees? The areas shown on the map near me by Stevens Pass are easily accessible.
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PostThu Jan 21, 2021 10:49 am 
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The Hidden Forest, published by Oregon State University and summarizing research conducted at Andrews Experimental Forest in the Oregon Cascades, explains how death and decay is essential for healthy forests in the PNW. On a micro scale, the soil chemistry and biology of a non-harvested forests is different than a forest where one harvests the smaller trees, even if you are leaving the big trees intact. The entire ecosystem is symbiotic, so removing trees, rather than allowing them to fall and decay naturally, has monumental long term effects. It's not just about trees and large wildlife but fungi, bugs, and micro organisms in the soil.

In other words, opening National Forests in the PNW to any logging will negatively affect the ecosystem, regardless of whether you leave the big trees in place. It is not as simplistic as leaving suitable habitat for spotted owls and marbled murrelet. Not to mention the devastating effect road construction (necessary for timber extraction) has on forests ecosystem, erosion, and water quality.

I suggest self proclaimed forestry experts read this book.
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PostThu Jan 21, 2021 12:06 pm 
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Ski wrote:
Last time I checked there were two mills around here that could handle really large stuff: one up near Marysville

If you're referring to Buse Timber along I-5, their maximum finished size is 24". Back around 1990 I needed a new horn timber cut for my boat (stern end of the keel) that was 36" and the only mill then that was capable of that size was Pope & Talbot in Port Gamble, which is long gone.
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PostThu Jan 21, 2021 3:05 pm 
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any logging will negatively affect the ecosystem... not to mention the devastating effect road construction

I know you mean well.

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Ski
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PostThu Jan 21, 2021 4:27 pm 
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Schroder wrote:
"If you're referring to..."

Schroder, it's been so many years since I made those phone calls I can't recall what mill it was. I only remember that it was in Marysville, and my step-father was still alive then, so it was at least 15 years ago, if not more.

Regardless, the fact remains that there simply are not that many facilities left (not just here in Washington, but up and down the West Coast) that can handle large wood.

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brineal
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PostThu Jan 21, 2021 5:19 pm 
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altasnob wrote:
The Hidden Forest, published by Oregon State University and summarizing research conducted at Andrews Experimental Forest in the Oregon Cascades, explains how death and decay is essential for healthy forests in the PNW. On a micro scale, the soil chemistry and biology of a non-harvested forests is different than a forest where one harvests the smaller trees, even if you are leaving the big trees intact. The entire ecosystem is symbiotic, so removing trees, rather than allowing them to fall and decay naturally, has monumental long term effects. It's not just about trees and large wildlife but fungi, bugs, and micro organisms in the soil.

In other words, opening National Forests in the PNW to any logging will negatively affect the ecosystem, regardless of whether you leave the big trees in place. It is not as simplistic as leaving suitable habitat for spotted owls and marbled murrelet. Not to mention the devastating effect road construction (necessary for timber extraction) has on forests ecosystem, erosion, and water quality.

I suggest self proclaimed forestry experts read this book.

Endorsed by a self proclaimed forestry expert.  Got it.
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treeswarper
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PostThu Jan 21, 2021 6:47 pm 
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Um, we already know about soils and microbes and all that stuff.  Yes, the rat logs will also do that too.  It's just easier to call Down Woody Debris--rat logs.  Practical. 

Whilst going through a forest engineering course, (at OSU no less) one of the professors gave a talk on forestry in South Africa.  A South African forester tried to bring Douglas-fir seeds into the country but the customs inspectors kept running the seeds through a sterilizer and they couldn't get them to grow.  The guy came back and smuggled DF seeds and soil into South Africa and was successful in propagating seedlings.  It was the mycorrhizae that was needed and the sterilization killed it.  I'm thinking that now the country is trying to get rid of those non native trees.

As for logging, which is such a broadly used term, being detrimental, it is a disturbance.  Forests will have disturbances no matter if logged or not, and a hot fire is extremely hard on soils. 

Now the circle of BS is going.   You'll cite papers, I'll speak of on the ground visitations and experience, and we've done all this before.   Nothing new to see here, run along...

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treeswarper
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PostThu Jan 21, 2021 7:00 pm 
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Ski wrote:
Schroder wrote:
"If you're referring to..."

Schroder, it's been so many years since I made those phone calls I can't recall what mill it was. I only remember that it was in Marysville, and my step-father was still alive then, so it was at least 15 years ago, if not more.

Regardless, the fact remains that there simply are not that many facilities left (not just here in Washington, but up and down the West Coast) that can handle large wood.

A few years ago, was talking about a blowdown which was near a campground and left for an educational display to a couple of loggers.   They had looked at it--it was a very nice tree and said that IF they could buy it, they would ship the butt log via container to the east coast where they knew of a buyer for such nice logs. I think it was a boat builder.

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brineal
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PostThu Jan 21, 2021 7:46 pm 
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treeswarper wrote:
Um, we already know about soils and microbes and all that stuff.  Yes, the rat logs will also do that too.  It's just easier to call Down Woody Debris--rat logs.  Practical. 

Whilst going through a forest engineering course, (at OSU no less) one of the professors gave a talk on forestry in South Africa.  A South African forester tried to bring Douglas-fir seeds into the country but the customs inspectors kept running the seeds through a sterilizer and they couldn't get them to grow.  The guy came back and smuggled DF seeds and soil into South Africa and was successful in propagating seedlings.  It was the mycorrhizae that was needed and the sterilization killed it.  I'm thinking that now the country is trying to get rid of those non native trees.

As for logging, which is such a broadly used term, being detrimental, it is a disturbance.  Forests will have disturbances no matter if logged or not, and a hot fire is extremely hard on soils. 

Now the circle of BS is going.   You'll cite papers, I'll speak of on the ground visitations and experience, and we've done all this before.   Nothing new to see here, run along...

Agree with all of this and credit should be given for the work that’s been done and progress accomplished in machine logging technology to mitigate soil impacts.
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timberghost
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PostFri Jan 22, 2021 7:14 am 
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With that being said lets get to logging these newly opened areas.
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altasnob
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PostFri Jan 22, 2021 8:30 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
we already know about soils and microbes and all that stuff.  Yes, the rat logs will also do that too.  It's just easier to call Down Woody Debris--rat logs.

Leaving the limbs and wood debris scattered on the forest floor does not replicate a huge tree left to decay over the course of thousands of years. In an old growth grove in, say, Rainier or Olympic National Park, you will see that the biggest trees are often growing on what appears to be a large mound of dirt. But upon closer inspection, you will see that it is not a random mound of dirt but instead is the remnants of a giant old log that has been rotting away. This large rotting log is why the next giant tree is growing in that spot. This large rotting log is why the fungi, flora, microbes are flourishing in that spot. Removing that giant old rotting tree will disrupt this symbiotic ecosystem.

The biomass in an old growth forest has reached a stable equilibrium. Trees are growing at the same rate that trees are falling. There is also a wide diversity in the size of the trees throughout the forest. To a timber company, an old growth forest is like a bank account that is not paying any interest. It is much more profitable to have a forest that has a growing biomass, such as second growth forest.

The book mentions U of Washington's forestry school used be referred to as U of Weyerhaeuser because of its close connection to the for profit timber industry. The same can be said for other top forestry schools, such as OSU (the book's publisher). The prior school of thought was that forests were no different than corn fields in Iowa. This belief permeated throughout the industry to the scientist and the heads of the agencies (USFS). Modern research at the H. J. Andrews Experimental Forest is showing that this is false and that man cannot harvest timber and still maintain the complex ecology of an old growth forest.

The PNW economy has fared remarkably well since the Northwest Forest Plan was adopted in 1994, which effectively shut off timber harvesting in PNW National Forest. Why change this? There is still timber harvesting on private and DNR lands. Why not recognize the ecological significance of maintaining our public forests as they are rather than try to make a quick buck?
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PostFri Jan 22, 2021 9:17 am 
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altasnob wrote:
The PNW economy has fared remarkably well since the Northwest Forest Plan was adopted in 1994, which effectively shut off timber harvesting in PNW National Forest. Why change this?

Why indeed.  This from the state Chamber of Commerce:

"About half of Washington is forested. In the Western part of the state, 75% of the trees are less than a century old and about half are less than 40 years old, considered the optimal harvest age. In 2014, more than 3.2 billion board feet of trees were harvested from private, federal and state lands, mostly Douglas-fir and western hemlock, accounting for 13% of total U.S. softwood lumber production and 7% of all plywood production in the United States. Private forestlands in Washington account for two-thirds of the state’s timber harvest.

With an eye on sustainability and stewardship, Washington’s 1,700+ forest products businesses employ some 42,000 workers, earning nearly $3 billion in wages annually. More than 10% of forestry-related jobs are “green” compared to about 3% for the state’s workforce as a whole. Gross business income is approximately $28 billion annually."


With unsustainable overharvesting no longer happening, the land is beginning to heal.  The economy no longer depends upon cutting big trees and yet is as strong as any economy in the world.  The waters are clearing and the salmon are slowing coming back.  The orca population has almost stabilized.  And yet as we stride confidently forward into this better world, there are those who would frantically reach back, hoping to grasp a simpler past that never really was.

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brineal
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PostFri Jan 22, 2021 1:21 pm 
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altasnob wrote:
Leaving the limbs and wood debris scattered on the forest floor does not replicate a huge tree left to decay over the course of thousands of years. In an old growth grove in, say, Rainier or Olympic National Park, you will see that the biggest trees are often growing on what appears to be a large mound of dirt. But upon closer inspection, you will see that it is not a random mound of dirt but instead is the remnants of a giant old log that has been rotting away. This large rotting log is why the next giant tree is growing in that spot. This large rotting log is why the fungi, flora, microbes are flourishing in that spot. Removing that giant old rotting tree will disrupt this symbiotic ecosystem.

The biomass in an old growth forest has reached a stable equilibrium. Trees are growing at the same rate that trees are falling. There is also a wide diversity in the size of the trees throughout the forest. To a timber company, an old growth forest is like a bank account that is not paying any interest. It is much more profitable to have a forest that has a growing biomass, such as second growth forest.

The book mentions U of Washington's forestry school used be referred to as U of Weyerhaeuser because of its close connection to the for profit timber industry. The same can be said for other top forestry schools, such as OSU (the book's publisher). The prior school of thought was that forests were no different than corn fields in Iowa. This belief permeated throughout the industry to the scientist and the heads of the agencies (USFS). Modern research at the H. J. Andrews Experimental Forest is showing that this is false and that man cannot harvest timber and still maintain the complex ecology of an old growth forest.

The PNW economy has fared remarkably well since the Northwest Forest Plan was adopted in 1994, which effectively shut off timber harvesting in PNW National Forest. Why change this? There is still timber harvesting on private and DNR lands. Why not recognize the ecological significance of maintaining our public forests as they are rather than try to make a quick buck?

Where in Washington are all these old growth logging units you keep referring to?  Where do we see any old growth logging in WA that scales?  DNR is cutting second and third growth; same with private industry.  Feds barely log anything as they get sued by the parasitic environmental groups who get payouts (of our tax dollars) for their attorneys fees when the Feds lose cases.

What private timber companies hold significant tracts of genuine old growth?  The condition you describe doesn't exist.

You speak in generalities which don't even reflect the realities of current forestry operations.
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Ski
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PostFri Jan 22, 2021 1:38 pm 
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brineal wrote:
Where in Washington are all these old growth logging units you keep referring to?  Where do we see any old growth logging in WA that scales?  DNR is cutting second and third growth; same with private industry.  Feds barely log anything as they get sued by the parasitic environmental groups who get payouts (of our tax dollars) for their attorneys fees when the Feds lose cases.

What private timber companies hold significant tracts of genuine old growth?  The condition you describe doesn't exist.

You speak in generalities which don't even reflect the realities of current forestry operations.

^ The perpetuation of a mythical bogeyman is the most effective way for the "parasitic environmental groups" to get monetary contributions from their membership and recruit new donors.

Not much to be gained by engaging in a discussion with people who refuse to deal in facts - kind of analogous to arguing with "Q-Anon" believers.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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