Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Trump Opens Spotted Owl Habitat in the PNW to Timber Harvesting
Previous :: Next Topic  
Author Message
brineal
Snarky Master



Joined: 30 Oct 2017
Posts: 97 | TRs

brineal
  Top

Snarky Master
PostFri Jan 22, 2021 6:34 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Tom wrote:
Sure, I hate these groups when they advocate for road closures, access restrictions and other things I don't necessarily agree with.  That said it's hard to blame them for using tools they have at their disposal.  Their end goal isn't to line their pockets, and scum in some cases might better depict those they advocate against.

Fair enough, by pointing out one flavor of scum I did not mean to exonerate other forms of scum.  I think many people would be surprised to see the real scheme in which those environments groups operate.  I disagree that they are not trying to line their pockets as that is the business model.  Take away the avenue to do that and let’s observe the experiment play out and see how vehemently they will fight for these issues without the very generous paydays they receive.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Malachai Constant
Member
Member


Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 14939 | TRs
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny
Malachai Constant
  Top

Member
PostFri Jan 22, 2021 8:10 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
My experience is in intellectual property patent, trademark, and copyright laws all contain fees provisions. They are not awarded in all or even most cases. They require that you advise the accused infringer that they infringe and ask them to cease and desist. You only get the fees if they continue infringing. Large companies often think they can out spend you and you will settle or quit. That often happens but the law exists as a deterrent triple damages can also be asserted. Enviro we talked laws have similar “private attorney general” provisions. These provisions allow enforcement at zero cost. If you do not think the government can also be a bad actor or in thrall to bad actors you should do your research. It is not a R v D issue. Remember fees are not awarded unless a judge or jury finds there has been abuse.

--------------
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
jinx'sboy
Member
Member


Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 639 | TRs
Location: on a great circle route
jinx'sboy
  Top

Member
PostFri Jan 22, 2021 8:42 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
As far as the hidden agenda of enviro groups, or their nefarious business practices….yawn.  More aluminum foil hattery...

Let’s remember that the case where env. groups actually go to Court - and win or lose - receive $$, is a pretty small number WHEN compared to Administrative appeals; where NO money changes hand when Decisions are affirmed or not.   In my career I participated in numerous EAs and EISs for timber and other projects as a specialist, writer or team leader.  Never once ended up in Court, but went through many many appeals. 

Don’t overstate the dollar impact of the few cases that end up in court when compared to all the decisions that are made.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
brineal
Snarky Master



Joined: 30 Oct 2017
Posts: 97 | TRs

brineal
  Top

Snarky Master
PostFri Jan 22, 2021 9:58 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
jinx'sboy wrote:
As far as the hidden agenda of enviro groups, or their nefarious business practices….yawn.  More aluminum foil hattery...

Let’s remember that the case where env. groups actually go to Court - and win or lose - receive $$, is a pretty small number WHEN compared to Administrative appeals; where NO money changes hand when Decisions are affirmed or not.   In my career I participated in numerous EAs and EISs for timber and other projects as a specialist, writer or team leader.  Never once ended up in Court, but went through many many appeals. 

Don’t overstate the dollar impact of the few cases that end up in court when compared to all the decisions that are made.

Ah, thank god an adult has re- entered the room.

Who has mentioned a “hidden” agenda?  I feel it is rather right in front of our faces.  Reading comprehension...yawn.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
brineal
Snarky Master



Joined: 30 Oct 2017
Posts: 97 | TRs

brineal
  Top

Snarky Master
PostFri Jan 22, 2021 10:13 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
catsp wrote:
Maybe I'm reading this stuff wrong, but the vitriol against the environmental groups based on assertions of a business model generating huge sums of money and attorney's fees from the government (billions supposedly) doesn't appear to have much basis in fact:

$$$$ For Lawsuits[?]

The Statutory Maximum Rates Under the Equal Access to Justice Act don't seem particularly high either (though it appears higher rates can be requested and awarded if appropriate).

I'm also not sure there's much support for the claim that the groups rely on "minutiae or clerical errors" to succeed. As I understand it, to recover attorney's fees under the EAJA, the court must find that the government's position lacked "substantial justification" (even if the government's position was incorrect). Sounds like a bit more than failing to dot an i or cross a t.

I’ll bite, what group are you talking about and what have been their fees awarded?
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
brineal
Snarky Master



Joined: 30 Oct 2017
Posts: 97 | TRs

brineal
  Top

Snarky Master
PostFri Jan 22, 2021 10:20 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Malachai Constant wrote:
My experience is in intellectual property patent, trademark, and copyright laws all contain fees provisions. They are not awarded in all or even most cases. They require that you advise the accused infringer that they infringe and ask them to cease and desist. You only get the fees if they continue infringing. Large companies often think they can out spend you and you will settle or quit. That often happens but the law exists as a deterrent triple damages can also be asserted. Enviro we talked laws have similar “private attorney general” provisions. These provisions allow enforcement at zero cost. If you do not think the government can also be a bad actor or in thrall to bad actors you should do your research. It is not a R v D issue. Remember fees are not awarded unless a judge or jury finds there has been abuse.

Gotta give credit, that was a lot of words to not refute, anything, that has been said thus far, congratulations. I take you at your word as the local expert in these matters (appeal to authority fallacy).

Do you know anything about timber harvest and owls? 😂😂😂

No worry about brainstems here.  Per Toms edict.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Tom
Admin



Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 16669 | TRs

Tom
  Top

Admin
PostFri Jan 22, 2021 10:38 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
See posting rules.  As noted earlier personal attacks / insults are off limits and we expect everyone to make a good faith effort to abide.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
brineal
Snarky Master



Joined: 30 Oct 2017
Posts: 97 | TRs

brineal
  Top

Snarky Master
PostFri Jan 22, 2021 10:52 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Tom wrote:
See posting rules.  As noted earlier personal attacks / insults are off limits and we expect everyone to make a good faith effort to abide.

Are you referring to the brainstems hashtags? If so I will remove them.  Low standards for discourse around here I must say, Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Tom
Admin



Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 16669 | TRs

Tom
  Top

Admin
PostFri Jan 22, 2021 11:06 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Edit: check your PM
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!



Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 10089 | TRs
Location: Don't move here
treeswarper
  Top

Alleged Sockpuppet!
PostSat Jan 23, 2021 5:04 am 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Just to clarify, going to court is extremely expensive.   The lawyers on here ought to understand that bit. 

In a timber sale court case, expert witnesses are flown in and housed at hotels.  This may happen several times.  Travel is spendy.  Attorneys spend hours and may have to travel prior to the trial, gathering evidence and taking depositions.  Then the lawsuit may be lost, adding more expense to the process--see the former posts about paying the enviro expenses.  I'm not very detailed on this, it's been a while. 

It isn't cheap and if a case can be settled out of court, that is the preferred method.  It's good for the pocketbook to throw out a unit, it may not be good for the land

On another point, just look at how much of the timber target laid out in the NWFP document has been cut, and you'll see that it has not happened.  That timber was available for harvest according to the plan, but was never offered due to avoiding any controversy. 

Also, I know of one timber sale that did go through court and the logging systems were mandated by a judge.  A judge.  Judges generally have no experience or training in that line of work.  A skyline system was ordered for the entire sale.  The sale was logged, but it took a lot of fine tuning and using some extra equipment ($$$) to comply with the order.  The entire sale was logged this way, even where it was flat.  Flat ground is not good for skylines as the contract calls for one end of the log to be suspended and some deflection is needed to meet that requirement.


The first picture shows flat ground and note that the carriage is close to the ground and will still be after lines are tightened. 

The second picture, on a different location, shows a similar carriage in a low position, but when lines are tightened, the logs will be partly suspended due to the shape of the ground and height of the tail tree rigged to (at the bottom of the unit).  Hill steepness and contour are important when planning.  Wish I had better pictures. 

Steeper slopes also may make for more pleasing views of the surrounding area.   That's one of the perks and is appreciated, when working on them.

Almost here.
Almost here.

Photo of one end suspension while yarding downhill.  Yarder is in the process of lowering the log to bring it to a stop at the landing.  Downhill yarding cuts production in half and is frowned upon by loggers.

--------------
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski
><((((°>



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 11569 | TRs
Location: tacoma
Ski
  Top

><((((°>
PostSat Jan 23, 2021 5:55 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
^ The thread you've cited is eleven years old now, and most of the links cited within it are no longer good.
There are, however, snippets of information contained in some of the posts.

Not sure what you're talking about when you say "CEI".

Not sure how you come up with "wildly misleading".
Figures don't lie, but liars figure.
The Sacramento Bee article, which I mentioned above, is no longer available online. The information contained in the multi-part article was well researched by the reporter who wrote the story.
The other dollar figures were mostly cited by governmental watchdog groups.
Just because you don't agree with the figures cited doesn't necessarily make then any less valid.

The dollar numbers cited at the time that thread was posted were accurate.

Or are you claiming all those articles and papers cited in that thread were "fake news" ???

Next question?

--------------
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Tom
Admin



Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 16669 | TRs

Tom
  Top

Admin
PostSat Jan 23, 2021 6:38 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
You can still find it on web archive.

https://web.archive.org/web/20091107232547/http://naturalresourcereport.com/2009/11/taxpayers-foot-the-bill-for-environmental-lawsuits/

For what it's worth the article summarizes the findings of Karen Budd-Falen a somewhat controversial lawyer who years later was appointed to a Trump cabinet position. The findings may be "well researched" but forgive those who may have a healthy dose of skepticism.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Ski
><((((°>



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 11569 | TRs
Location: tacoma
Ski
  Top

><((((°>
PostSat Jan 23, 2021 7:02 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
^ that's not the article I was referring to above, Tom

The Sacramento Bee published an article a couple months before that thread started, as I recall. It was a multi-part article which was printed their publication over a course of several weeks.
I really wish I'd copy and pasted the entire thing. It was very well researched, very well done, and nothing like some of the other articles which are cited in that thread.

It's all fine and well to be skeptical, but I did not at the time, nor do I now have any reservations about the veracity of the content in that Sacramento Bee series. Not sure if the link or title of the article is cited in that thread or not.

--------------
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
Tom
Admin



Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 16669 | TRs

Tom
  Top

Admin
PostSat Jan 23, 2021 7:21 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Oh, I didn't see anything in that thread other than the original link. I assumed that's what you were talking about. Maybe you can find the Sacramento Bee article on web archive?
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail Reply to topic Reply with quote
brineal
Snarky Master



Joined: 30 Oct 2017
Posts: 97 | TRs

brineal
  Top

Snarky Master
PostSat Jan 23, 2021 11:09 pm 
Reply to topic Reply with quote
Tom wrote:
Oh, I didn't see anything in that thread other than the original link. I assumed that's what you were talking about. Maybe you can find the Sacramento Bee article on web archive?

Tom, I think it all goes back to the premise that the forest is going to get nuked by logging.  And kill all the owls.  On federal lands.  In, specifically, the old growth where the owls live.

I think we should hold our outrage at least until the cutting units get announced 😂
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Reply to topic Reply with quote
   All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Trump Opens Spotted Owl Habitat in the PNW to Timber Harvesting
  Happy Birthday Nisquaww, DRSpalding, highwalker!
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
   Use Disclaimer Powered by phpBB Privacy Policy