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treeswarper
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PostWed Jan 27, 2021 8:52 am 
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It isn't all "pristine and untouched".  This paper is written about Northern New Mexico, but tribes all over the continent burned and weeded for food, construction materials, and wildlife management.  The weeding occurred in camus fields.

Ancient Urban Interface Fuels Management

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PostWed Jan 27, 2021 9:37 am 
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The book "1491" by Charles C. Mann discusses this at length too.
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Ski
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PostWed Jan 27, 2021 10:56 am 
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discussed at length in the "Let's burn all the trees" thread ( http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7963729 ) as well as several others.
some of the links in that one may be dead. I'm sure the information can be easily found with a simple Google search for those who are willing and able to do the research.

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treeswarper
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PostWed Jan 27, 2021 12:23 pm 
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Just thought a refresher read might be needed.

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PostWed Jan 27, 2021 1:39 pm 
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The people who need to read it most likely wont, unfortunately. It's out of their "safe zone" (aka "information silo" to use the most current term.)
Easier to speak from the delusional position of "let nature take its course" and hold onto the belief in the myth that the entire north American continent was covered from sea to shining sea with verdant "old growth" forest in the pre-Columbian era.
Also helping to reinforce that mindset is ignoring the purpose and reason for creating the United States Forest Service and the Bureau of Lands Management - believing instead that it was "set aside" solely for the purpose of recreationists who contribute virtually nothing monetarily to maintain the existing infrastructure or pay for administrative staff.

I believe it was the University of Michigan (?) who did the study, the findings from which were that people who hold onto belief systems and ideologies, when presented with facts that refuted those belief systems and ideologies, became more resolute in their beliefs.

Kind of like the Q-Anon idiots.

In a nutshell: a complete and total waste of time.

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treeswarper
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PostWed Jan 27, 2021 2:55 pm 
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What I found interesting was a new to me fact.   Looked up camus after seeing the bit about planes being filmed above Camus Meadows.  I couldn't remember which color was death Camus and which color of flower was the edible.  Yellow is death. 

One of the items said that tribes weeded out the Death Camus in some areas.  One such place was found in Montana.  I kind of suspected something of the sort, but never read about it.

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Ski
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PostWed Jan 27, 2021 3:30 pm 
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^ I'm confused.

Do you mean camas ? Our local indigenous variety being Camassia Quamash

(The Death Camas is a different species.)

Camas was prolific on the South Puget Sound Glacial Outwash Prairies - notably the "American Plain" which stretched from about present-day DuPont up to Roy and McKenna, a small remnant of which remains somewhat intact on the Joint Base Lewis-McChord military reservation.
Historically gathered and used as a dietary staple by the local Native American tribes until white settlers brought in sheep, which effectively eradicated the plant from that area.

There are still remnants of the South Puget Sound Glacial Outwash Prairie (a unique oak-prairie ecosystem) at the bottom end of the Puget Sound basin at the Mima Mounds near Littlerock, the West Rocky Prairie Wildlife Area Area near Maytown, the Scatter Creek Wildlife Area near Rochester, and a tiny parcel within the city limits of Tacoma at Oak Tree Park.

Another local area where camas was harvested as a food crop by Native Americans was on the prairies at Ozette and Forks. (see The Ozette Prairies of Olympic National Park: Their Former Indigenous Uses and Management" ゥ 2009 M. Kat Anderson - Olympic National Park )

All of these areas were "maintained" (aka "MANAGED") over the course of about 3500 years up until the early years of the 20th century. (citations noted in aforementioned thread in my first post in this thread.)
Anecdotal reports would indicate that the management by Native Americans of these areas (and others) for food gathering as well as other purposes, was far more extensive than was previously believed. (The first surveyors of the Olympic Peninsula, Dodwell and Rixon, noted in 1902 that "whole townships" had been burned over along the lower Queets River.)

It is worth noting that the South Puget Sound Glacial Outwash Prairies, and the unique ecosystems they support, are in far greater peril of disappearing than spotted owls or "old growth".

West Rocky Prairie Wildlife Area 012421 08
West Rocky Prairie Wildlife Area 012421 08
West Rocky Prairie Wildlife Area 012421 42
West Rocky Prairie Wildlife Area 012421 42
West Rocky Prairie Wildlife Area 012421 25
West Rocky Prairie Wildlife Area 012421 25
West Rocky Prairie Wildlife Area 012421 45
West Rocky Prairie Wildlife Area 012421 45

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altasnob
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PostWed Jan 27, 2021 3:45 pm 
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In Washington State, Native Americans torched and cleared forests in areas such as Sequim, Ozette, and Camas to enlarge meadow hunting areas and for berry picking. But as I understand, the area Native Americans intentionally disturbed was very small compared to the total forests that existed at the time. And I believe Native American population never got above 1 million in Washington State.

Compare that to today with a population of 7.6 million people and growing. How much of Washington's forests today remain old growth compared to 200 years ago? Most of the previously forested land in Washington State has been cleared for housing and other uses. Some of Washington's forests are actively logged today (private lands, DNR, and some of the National Forest lands). That leaves a very small amount of total forests in Washington preserved as Wilderness or other public lands off limits to logging and other human disturbance.

Is there evidence that Native Americans cleared as much forests as modern man has cleared in Washington state? Am I incorrect to assume the areas disturbed by Native Americans was small and isolated patches around the state?
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PostWed Jan 27, 2021 3:48 pm 
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Ski wrote:
It is worth noting that the South Puget Sound Glacial Outwash Prairies, and the unique ecosystems they support, are in far greater peril of disappearing than spotted owls or "old growth".

But for environmental groups, the cross base highway would have been completed further destroying this unique and limited ecosystem.
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brineal
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PostWed Jan 27, 2021 3:51 pm 
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altasnob wrote:
In Washington State, Native Americans torched and cleared forests in areas such as Sequim, Ozette, and Camas to enlarge meadow hunting areas and for berry picking. But as I understand, the area Native Americans intentionally disturbed was very small compared to the total forests that existed at the time. And I believe Native American population never got above 1 million in Washington State.

Compare that to today with a population of 7.6 million people and growing. How much of Washington's forests today remain old growth compared to 200 years ago? Most of the previously forested land in Washington State has been cleared for housing and other uses. Some of Washington's forests are actively logged today (private lands, DNR, and some of the National Forest lands). That leaves a very small amount of total forests in Washington preserved as Wilderness or other public lands off limits to logging and other human disturbance.

Is there evidence that Native Americans cleared as much forests as modern man has cleared in Washington state? Am I incorrect to assume the areas disturbed by Native Americans was small and isolated patches around the state?

Pretty sure WA has the most acreage dedicated as wilderness in the lower 48.  Glass half empty, glass half full.
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altasnob
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PostWed Jan 27, 2021 4:20 pm 
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brineal wrote:
Pretty sure WA has the most acreage dedicated as wilderness in the lower 48.

Washington is third in the lower 48 for total wilderness areas behind California and libertarian paradises of Idaho and Arizona.

https://wilderness.net/practitioners/wilderness-areas/summary-reports/acreage-by-state.php

All of the Western US states have more wilderness than elsewhere in the US because modern man has had less time to try to destroy them.
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PostWed Jan 27, 2021 4:38 pm 
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altasnob wrote:
brineal wrote:
Pretty sure WA has the most acreage dedicated as wilderness in the lower 48.

Washington is third in the lower 48 for total wilderness areas behind California and libertarian paradises of Idaho and Arizona.

https://wilderness.net/practitioners/wilderness-areas/summary-reports/acreage-by-state.php

All of the Western US states have more wilderness than elsewhere in the US because modern man has had less time to try to destroy them.

Interesting, for some reason I thought otherwise.

Do you sit at home hoping / praying for a meteor or what?
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PostWed Jan 27, 2021 7:47 pm 
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altasnob wrote:
In Washington State, Native Americans torched and cleared forests in areas such as Sequim, Ozette, and Camas to enlarge meadow hunting areas and for berry picking. But as I understand, the area Native Americans intentionally disturbed was very small compared to the total forests that existed at the time. And I believe Native American population never got above 1 million in Washington State.

Compare that to today with a population of 7.6 million people and growing. How much of Washington's forests today remain old growth compared to 200 years ago? Most of the previously forested land in Washington State has been cleared for housing and other uses. Some of Washington's forests are actively logged today (private lands, DNR, and some of the National Forest lands). That leaves a very small amount of total forests in Washington preserved as Wilderness or other public lands off limits to logging and other human disturbance.

Is there evidence that Native Americans cleared as much forests as modern man has cleared in Washington state? Am I incorrect to assume the areas disturbed by Native Americans was small and isolated patches around the state?

Have you seen Graham Hancocks recent research into the amazon?  He痴 hypothesizing there could have been millions living in the amazon at some point in prehistory. Interesting.
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treeswarper
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PostThu Jan 28, 2021 5:56 am 
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Ski, yes, Camas.  My spelling is going downhill.

I could not remember which color of flower was edible.     One has blue flowers and one has yellow flowers.  The yellow is the Death Camas, which was weeded out.  From what I understand, it is hard to tell the difference unless the plants are flowered. 

I have no paper references to support this, but there is also the story that Council Bluff or part of that country, was hard to reforest because of repetitive hot burns that were done by tribes to keep the berries growing.  A good part of that country, as several of us know, was burned frequently by the tribes.  That would have also made for better deer browse. 

I've also been told that archeologists have found evidence that the local elk population disappeared in the pre European times (Randle Packwood area)until reintroduced in modern times.  They have found elk bones in the old fire pits and then the elk bones no longer appear.  Over hunting?   Volcanic eruption?  Disease?

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treeswarper
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PostThu Jan 28, 2021 6:01 am 
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I have an acquaintance who works for the Dept. of Defense at Ft. Lewis in forestry.  They are actually in the meadow maintenance business.  He says the planning meetings can get interesting when butterfly management needs differ from wildlife needs.  Then there is the explosive problem...

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