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Brian R
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PostWed Mar 31, 2021 9:56 pm 
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Randito wrote:
uww wrote:
fee based activities

Entering the park is a fee based activity.

So your objection is whether the fee is rendered to the federal government directly or to a guide service?

It doesn't cost a thousand bucks to enter the park. Not sure why you, Randy, employ this straw-man tactic time after time after time. The point about fees and access is clear to anyone discussing this topic in good faith.
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Randito
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PostWed Mar 31, 2021 10:55 pm 
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Brian R wrote:
It doesn't cost a thousand bucks to enter the park. Not sure why you, Randy, employ this straw-man tactic time after time after time. The point about fees is clear to anyone discussing this topic in good faith.

The fee issue itself is strawman.    "Rugged individuals" that are able to self organize treks in MORA have to invest a lot of time, energy and funds in order to do so.   

Guided groups may charge a fee,  but also enable many people to experience the beauty of the park  that otherwise lack the skills and organizational ability to do so independently.


Guided groups have a number of advantages for the park.   

The guides knowledge and direction substantially reduce the per capita impact on the park compared to usage by "the general public"  , for which the NPS deploys volunteer "meadow rovers" to remind "the general public" to "stay on established trails",  "don't pick the flowers",  "don't litter" , etc, etc.  All of which guided groups do with their patrons.
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Brian R
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PostWed Mar 31, 2021 11:52 pm 
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Guided climbs on the upper mountain are different than 'guided jogging' in a wilderness area of a national park. First, the upper mountain guide services have over 100 years of precedent--they are part of the park's history. Second, they put in the route, ladders, rescue, advise and assist hundreds of independent "non-paying" climbers every year. The jogging cartels just gobble up existing infrastructure/trails/camp space--while demanding other hikers get out of their way--without contributing anything to the park or it's less affluent users. IMO, they are a huge net negative.
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neek
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PostThu Apr 01, 2021 5:45 am 
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Checking Randito's first link, Aspire takes a single group of 12 out to run the Wonderland in 3 days, camping at the drive-in campgrounds.  They do this 4 times a year.  Presumably other organizations are doing something similar.  I can't imagine the park would permit more than one of these events going on at the same time, but please correct me if this is wrong.

This doesn't seem like a big deal to me.  12 "rugged individuals" would have more impact, take up more campground space, poop more, yak more because they aren't out of breath, be more likely to carry portable speakers, be less agile and harder for me to get around, etc.

In 20 years of hiking and backpacking, I haven't encountered a single organized trail run.  But let's go extreme and say these groups have completely taken over the park, and individuals aren't even allowed in.  What would I do then?  Well, I'd just join them, or go somewhere else.  Why?  Because I'm a rugged individual who can adapt to reality, rather than spend my precious remaining last years of life complaining about things I can't control in unrelated threads on obscure Internet bulletin boards.
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Slugman
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PostThu Apr 01, 2021 6:32 am 
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How can someone use the “you’re denying others!” attack against one group only, when the principle applies to every group? And they admit that’s what they are doing.

It appears uww thinks only those that believe as he/she does have value, and everyone else is a non-person. There is only room for one viewpoint and one kind of person in uww’s world.

I think instead of endless and pointless thread drift here that you take your opinions right to the park. Tell them how evil all money-making is, and you demand it be cleansed from our parks. Purity according to your beliefs is obviously the prime mission of parks in your mind, not trying to serve the diverse desires of many people.

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“The jerking motion of a knee does not reflect the operation of a mind”  Slugman, January 24th 2020
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uww
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PostThu Apr 01, 2021 2:48 pm 
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Good news: My internet strawman group has secured 25 individual walkup sites in MORA for July 1-7 (group sites aren't our thing). Let us be your guides-  you can place your bids for a campsite on our website, starts at $250 per person per day and the sky is the limit. We won't be guiding you on the finer points of camping of course- these spaces are reserved for people who share a common interest that is not camping. Ours is exploring roads that are not SR165, which is better when you don't have to drive all the way home.  All other groups (photographers, fishermen, beer enthusiasts who went to the same high school, people who forget to make reservations early) who also happen to enjoy holiday weekend camping must stand in line with the riff-raff for the remaining spaces until they figure out how to organize and attach a check.
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kiliki
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PostThu Apr 01, 2021 3:12 pm 
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Randito wrote:
kiliki wrote:
Right, though there are also plenty of other companies on that concession list that are authorized to provide group camping, backpacking, day hiking and all sorts of other group activities...

Part of the Department of Interior's mission statement reads (emphasis added):

Quote:
Increase access to outdoor recreation opportunities for all Americans so that our people can be healthier, more fully enjoy the wonderful features of their federal lands, and take advantage of hunting, fishing, and other outdoor recreation pursuits that are the roots of the conservation movement.

It seems to me that permitting guiding companies to organize and support activities that people may lack the knowledge, training, resources, confidence, etc to undertake individually seems perfectly in support of that part of the mission statement.

Right, that's the DOI/NPS argument. (That's also the argument for all sorts of things that have been on the table for NPs the past few years--more mt biking, more snowmobile access, hunting in NPs, etc.) I would support the idea of taking campsites out of the reservation system where the general population can get them for some limited amount of non-profit use--something where you truly are increasing access for people that might not otherwise have it. To me it's a different matter when it's a for-profit company selling a glamping experience, and they're getting to reserve the campsites for their profit making ventures before the rest of us have a chance to access them.

If you want to talk about mission statements and policy--NPS campgrounds were specifically built to provide accomodations for the "common man." Particularly during the last great era of NPS development 1955-1966 when so many campgrounds were built and expanded, it was understood that many people couldn't afford park lodges or even motels in nearby towns. Campgrounds were developed with the specific goal of allowing more people to access and enjoy their NPs in a low cost way. Allowing companies to buy campsites and make them unavailable to individuals and families undermines their original purpose.

To me Aspire is particularly galling as anyone that has the ability to run the Wonderland Trail and pay for the support has the ability to access their public lands. IMO this does not meet that mission statement. Other groups may.
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neek
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PostThu Apr 01, 2021 4:24 pm 
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kiliki wrote:
To me Aspire is particularly galling as anyone that has the ability to run the Wonderland Trail and pay for the support has the ability to access their public lands. IMO this does not meet that mission statement. Other groups may.

I'm still failing to grasp the overall point, since again they're camping in drive-up non-reserveable spaces that no one doing the Wonderland wants to use.  Obviously if they were taking over Klapatche Park or otherwise denying access to others, that would be a problem.
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Randito
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PostThu Apr 01, 2021 5:38 pm 
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FWIW: Aspire's 3 day Wonderland supported runs are all Wednesday-Saturday so the road end campgrounds are impacted Wed,Thurs and Fri nights.    Mowich Lake Campground is used Thursday night.

But sure be outraged that Seattle locals are being edged out of the walk up campsites at Mowich on weekends -- we do live in a country where alternative facts are acceptable to 35% of the population.
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uww
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PostThu Apr 01, 2021 6:24 pm 
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neek wrote:
Obviously if they were taking over Klapatche Park or otherwise denying access to others, that would be a problem.

What's the problem? 12 people getting to reserve Klapatche Park before anyone else gets to enter the lottery a few times a summer leaves plenty of other wilderness campsites.
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Brian R
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PostThu Apr 01, 2021 7:37 pm 
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uww wrote:
Good news: My internet strawman group has secured 25 individual walkup sites in MORA for July 1-7 (group sites aren't our thing). Let us be your guides-  you can place your bids for a campsite on our website, starts at $250 per person per day and the sky is the limit. We won't be guiding you on the finer points of camping of course- these spaces are reserved for people who share a common interest that is not camping. Ours is exploring roads that are not SR165, which is better when you don't have to drive all the way home.  All other groups (photographers, fishermen, beer enthusiasts who went to the same high school, people who forget to make reservations early) who also happen to enjoy holiday weekend camping must stand in line with the riff-raff for the remaining spaces until they figure out how to organize and attach a check.

Like a wilderness version of Ticket Master. I love it!
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Brian R
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PostThu Apr 01, 2021 7:43 pm 
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Randito wrote:
we do live in a country where alternative facts are acceptable to 35% of the population.

Yet more partisan/political nonsense from the court jester. You just can't help yourself?
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Backcountry
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PostSun Apr 11, 2021 8:53 am 
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The potholed road is the least of the issues given the substandard bridges along the way. The Spiketon Bridge on 162 should be a warning that the bridges over the creek in and just outside of Wilkeson are in need of replacement as well.  The Ofarrel bridge will be a monumental effort to replace as well.  The tourons in their big rental Suburbans and staying in their lanes are bad enough on the narrow bridges but if those bridges fail there will be no access to the NW corner of the Park.  Fix the bridges first then get around to making the last 7 miles a smooth ride.
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