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Cyclopath
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PostWed Mar 24, 2021 5:15 pm 
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Randito wrote:
There is clearly a discrepancy in these two accounts about "who threw the 1st punch"

Criminals usually have a story.   I stabbed that guy for a good cause: get bikes off our trail self defense.

I always leave the house with a switchblade when I know a cyclist is going to attack me that day.
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Brian R
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PostWed Mar 24, 2021 6:01 pm 
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Kim Brown wrote:
Some idiot jogger roared at hikers to get out of his way once; you could hear his big fat mouth a half a mile away. Not sure I would have stabbed him, given the opportunity, but I might have. He made my blood boil, the bastard any way. That was about 4 years ago and I'm still pissed off. embarassedlaugh.gif

I had the same experience--and feel the same way. Had this been a trail runner instead of a mountain biker, well, I think I'd be a bit more sure about who the trouble-maker was. There are we ordinary narcissists--hikers, climbers, cyclists--and then there are trail runners! In a class by themselves.
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Chief Joseph
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PostWed Mar 24, 2021 6:07 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
Randito wrote:
There is clearly a discrepancy in these two accounts about "who threw the 1st punch"

Criminals usually have a story.   I stabbed that guy for a good cause: get bikes off our trail self defense.

I always leave the house with a switchblade when I know a cyclist is going to attack me that day.

Did you read Neek's link? Mr McStabby said that he and 3 other hikers could not get the biker off of him....either they are really weak or the biker is the Incredible Hulk.

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Brian R
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PostWed Mar 24, 2021 6:09 pm 
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Cyclopath wrote:
I always leave the house with a switchblade

Not sure this is such a big deal. I've carried a pocket knife since I was, like, eight years old. I don't think I know anyone, male, who doesn't. The fact that it may or not have been spring loaded? Other than The Outsiders imagery it brings, it makes no sense they are restricted. (Especially considering what IS allowed.)
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neek
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PostWed Mar 24, 2021 6:13 pm 
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Plus you never know when you're going to get trapped under a rock and need to saw your arm off.  "Considering what is allowed" - yeah no kidding.
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Bootpathguy
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PostWed Mar 24, 2021 7:55 pm 
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Didn't read the entire thread, so, not sure if this important tid-bit of information has been debated.

Were they wearing masks?

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Chief Joseph
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PostWed Mar 24, 2021 7:57 pm 
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Randito wrote:
Anne Elk wrote:
Mr. Traphagen is in serious trouble

Agreed -- and I think in evaluating the case a reasonable person would a consider to what degree at any point did each party have the opportunity to "step aside" and deescalate the situation.

"Isn't Washington a stand your ground state? Where the use of force is lawful when used by someone who reasonably believes that he is about to be injured, as long as the force is not more than is necessary?

If that's accurate, might not the question simply be whether the gentle though admittedly pointed encouragement by the elderly Pony Boy to get the blood-eyed out of control cyclist to finally cease his sustained and vicious attack, reasonable under the circumstances?

Also, I believe that if he establishes self-defense, he gets reimbursed for the reasonable costs of his defense.".


Completely agree! It's easy to jump to conclusions. Did the cyclist also have a witness?

Bootpathguy wrote:
Didn't read the entire thread, so, not sure if this important tid-bit of information has been debated.

Were they wearing masks?

Right? The guy could have been afraid of getting Covid, so stab he did!

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Randito
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PostWed Mar 24, 2021 9:17 pm 
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Chief Joseph wrote:
"Isn't Washington a stand your ground state? Where the use of force is lawful when used by someone who reasonably believes that he is about to be injured, as long as the force is not more than is necessary?

Quote:
RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force—When lawful.
The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:
...
(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;
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whoami
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PostWed Mar 24, 2021 10:25 pm 
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One thing is for certain though; when I seek a passive-aggressive opinion from a group of people who think they're experts on just about every subject out there, I go to NWHikers, where I usually see the same five or six "experts" spouting off at the keyboard.

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Pyrites
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 12:23 am 
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If you’re that unhappy sharing take up stamp collecting or travel off trail.
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 6:28 am 
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whoami wrote:
One thing is for certain though; when I seek a passive-aggressive opinion from a group of people who think they're experts on just about every subject out there, I go to NWHikers, where I usually see the same five or six "experts" spouting off at the keyboard.

That's a fact!! up.gif
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 7:45 am 
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Randito wrote:
I think part of the issue is people thinking "I have the right of way" rather than "these are suggestions to help people get along on the trail."

THAT.

I have a whole thing written up on this that I've hesitated to post. I wrote it after a guy with no mask in the dark with two dogs running loose, one large black one that scared the sh## out of me when it came out of nowhere, yielded not one inch of trail to me as I ran down- he stayed dead center even though it was plenty wide enough for him to stay on it an make some room for me. We bumped shoulders as I declined to stop and move into the brush to let him pass.

He called me an a-hole. "I HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY! I'M GOING UP! YOU A-HOLE!"

I took a deep breath and just kept going.

Here's a bit from what I wrote after that:

"Passing people on trails is a negotiation. I've been cursed at twice in recent weeks for not yielding the entire trail to uphill travelers. Sorry, but there is no such law. That guideline is someone's opinion, and I don't agree with it. My personal behavior is that I yield to a faster party, coming up behind me or coming toward me, regardless of who is going uphill. If you are running or carrying a big, unwieldy pack, you have my respect and I'll make room. Sometimes it's easier or makes more sense for the uphill party to step aside, sometimes downhill. Make eye contact; sort it out. If you hog the entire trail because you happen to be going up and we bump shoulders, that's on you, not me."

Also, PSA: The pandemic is not over. Case counts are almost as bad as the peak last year prior to the holiday surge. Your mask protects me, and mine protects  you. Please, PLEASE mask up around other people on trails. The '10 minutes within six feet' rule of thumb from last year is gone with the new, much more transmissible mutations.

It's been a long and upsetting year for almost everyone. A bit of mutual kindness goes a long way, always and especially right now.

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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 8:15 am 
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Randito wrote:
If the testimony of other witnessess is that the biker rammed the hiker and the grabbing of the handbars was a defensive response, the hiker's case of self-defense will be a bit stronger. 

LOL, I sure hope I'm a strong enough climber at 66 to be accused of ramming folks with my bike while pedaling uphill!  "Your honor, I present to you my client's strava track showing that he was travelling at approximately 3 mph at the time of the incident"

catsp wrote:
You clearly have decided you know enough from an article and your own apparent bias in favor of the many entitled, aggressive and confrontational cyclists, to be judge, jury and executioner against the allegedly self-defending kindly elderly hiker here.

I don't know that you can really play the age card on this one considering everyone involved was old enough to collect social security.
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HikerJohn
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 8:26 am 
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I'm inclined to withhold judgment on this one-- I suspect there is a lot more to this story (including 3 other witnesses we aren't hearing from) than we are hearing.

That said, a little trail courtesy goes a long ways:  Stepping aside to let horses pass, not riding too fast on shared trails, yielding to uphill hikers.

I've been on the wrong side of aggressive riders when doing trail work (one guy yelled at me to get out of the way while I was digging to repair a damaged section of trail.  When I stood up and he saw the FS uniform plus me holding a big shovel and ready to whack him if he hit me, he got really contrite really fast).

BTW riding with your toes clipped in on a steep trail is a recipe for disaster-- if your bike slips sideways and goes off the trail, you are going with it-- no easy or rapid way to bail out.

It seems that a little better behavior on EVERYONE's part could have prevented this.
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Brian R
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 12:06 pm 
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cascadeclimber wrote:
Also, PSA: The pandemic is not over. Case counts are almost as bad as the peak last year prior to the holiday surge. Your mask protects me, and mine protects  you. Please, PLEASE mask up around other people on trails. The '10 minutes within six feet' rule of thumb from last year is gone with the new, much more transmissible mutations.

It's been a long and upsetting year for almost everyone. A bit of mutual kindness goes a long way, always and especially right now.

This isn't a CDC guideline--and I don't wear a mask outdoors. Will not. Sorry, but this a choice issue.
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