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Kim Brown
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 12:19 pm 
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HikerJohn wrote:
When I stood up and he saw the FS uniform plus me holding a big shovel and ready to whack him if he hit me, he got really contrite really fast

Are you the really really tall chap? Could have been that is what made him backpedal when you stood up!

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philfort
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 1:03 pm 
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Brian R wrote:
This isn't a CDC guideline--and I don't wear a mask outdoors. Will not. Sorry, but this a choice issue.

Just wear a neck scarf and pull it up if you see others coming your way with a mask on. It's really not that difficult.

Passing by someone outdoors is super low risk, but a lot of people don't even want to take that risk. Absolutely refusing to make even the most basic accommodations for others seems like pretty anti-social behavior. Ask yourself why it's so important to you to make that statement.
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Slide Alder Slayer
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 1:12 pm 
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I have seen a lot of similar scenarios working for three different courts during my career, (i.e.) two wrongs dont make a right and the greater wrong almost always gets charged.

The biker could have unclipped and stood off to the side just as the hikers could have let him pass. I doubt this will go to trail as the defendant may be offered a plea deal, a lower degree of Assault or perhaps a charge reduced to a Gross Misdemeanor.

What happens in a Court has nothing to do with the truth, only what you can prove. The defendant will probably be advised by his attorney to take a plea deal if offered rather that fight Assault 1, as stab wounds are powerful proof.
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 2:55 pm 
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Brian R wrote:
This isn't a CDC guideline--and I don't wear a mask outdoors. Will not. Sorry, but this a choice issue.

incorrect.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/about-face-coverings.html

Quote:
CDC recommends that people wear masks in public settings, at events and gatherings, and anywhere they will be around other people. Effective February 2, 2021, masks are required on planes, buses, trains, and other forms of public transportation traveling into, within, or out of the United States and in U.S. transportation hubs such as airports and stations.

i suspect many that tout the mask "choice" or vaccine "choice" are also ones that don't believe in a certain choice made by women. i won't comment further on the hypocrisy of "choice" here.
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 3:02 pm 
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This is quickly going off the rails so I'll only put this link here:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/02/how-public-health-messaging-backfired/618147/
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 3:05 pm 
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cascadeclimber wrote:
Randito wrote:
I think part of the issue is people thinking "I have the right of way" rather than "these are suggestions to help people get along on the trail."

THAT.

I have a whole thing written up on this that I've hesitated to post. I wrote it after a guy with no mask in the dark with two dogs running loose, one large black one that scared the sh## out of me when it came out of nowhere, yielded not one inch of trail to me as I ran down- he stayed dead center even though it was plenty wide enough for him to stay on it an make some room for me. We bumped shoulders as I declined to stop and move into the brush to let him pass.

He called me an a-hole. "I HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY! I'M GOING UP! YOU A-HOLE!"

I took a deep breath and just kept going.

Here's a bit from what I wrote after that:

"Passing people on trails is a negotiation. I've been cursed at twice in recent weeks for not yielding the entire trail to uphill travelers. Sorry, but there is no such law. That guideline is someone's opinion, and I don't agree with it. My personal behavior is that I yield to a faster party, coming up behind me or coming toward me, regardless of who is going uphill. If you are running or carrying a big, unwieldy pack, you have my respect and I'll make room. Sometimes it's easier or makes more sense for the uphill party to step aside, sometimes downhill. Make eye contact; sort it out. If you hog the entire trail because you happen to be going up and we bump shoulders, that's on you, not me."

Also, PSA: The pandemic is not over. Case counts are almost as bad as the peak last year prior to the holiday surge. Your mask protects me, and mine protects  you. Please, PLEASE mask up around other people on trails. The '10 minutes within six feet' rule of thumb from last year is gone with the new, much more transmissible mutations.

It's been a long and upsetting year for almost everyone. A bit of mutual kindness goes a long way, always and especially right now.

A person running downhill has momentum.  If a person running downhill crashes into someone there is a reasonable likelihood of injuries.

A person going uphill only has their own strength resisting gravity so if that person runs into someone its likely to just be a bump.

That is where yield to the climber came from.  You cannot expect everyone to get out of the way of a person barreling down the mountain.  Its why mountain bikers are expected to yield to everyone. They are faster.  They are more dangerous.

That doesn't mean it isn't nice for the user in the best position yield to do so, it means that it is the responsibility of the cyclist, or person going downhill to make sure they don't plow into people.  99% of the time its way easier for a hiker to step off the trail rather than a cyclist to get off their bike and get off the trail.  The hikers that do step off sure are nice humans but nobody can expect them to.

If I was hiking uphill in the dark and someone came at me  and didn't slow down and made it clear they weren't going to yield it would scare me.  I get scared, I freeze.

Point being,  maybe this person had poor eyesight.  Maybe they weren't comfortable stepping off the trail for some reason.  Maybe they were rehabbing and climbing without stopping for a period of time was a big deal to them... maybe just as big of a deal to them as your run is to you.  It is pretty standard that the climbing user has the right of way so if I had to pick the ass#### in this situation, I pick you.

The real truth is that it sucks to have conflicts on the trail.  It ruins the mood.  Maybe just give each other the benefit of doubt?

As for the hiker versu biker, he was clipped in and climbing a techy section.  He couldn't have been going more than walking pace. All he could do at that point is continue at walking pace or tip over.  In order to do more he would have to clip out, and step off his bike while not losing balance on shoes with weird metal things on the bottom not intended for walking.  That would give the hikers plenty of time to move out of range.

Often times hikers come around the bend and you cannot stop and get out of the way fast enough for them not to have to break stride.  As stated above, in a lot of situations it would be more efficient for the hikers to step off.

That said, no injuries to the hiker have been reported and the mountain biker was hospitalized so I'm siding with the mountain biker.  Nobody should get stabbed for not yielding on a trail.

I agree on the mask thing.  Either mask up when others approach or get 6ft off the trail.
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pula58
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 4:00 pm 
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I was hiking on the Scott Paul trail one day, and a trail runner suddenly appeared, and was yelling. I froze, he ran into me, and he got royally pissed off. The yelling (his yelling) simply did not compute, and suddenly he was right in front of me on a section of trail where there was really nowhere to go, too narrow.

So, whether the runner, or I, had the right of way was moot, it all happened too fast for me to respond. I was carrying a heavy-ish pack on a very hot day, moving slow (but steady). It's as if the runner and I were existing in two totally different time frames.

The only way we can get along, on the trails, and even on this online forum, is to not give in quite so fast to our emotions. Let a little cooling occur, and err on the side of courtesy.

The model is two people at a doorway, both wanting to pass through. One person says "After you," pointing the way ahead,  and the other person then says "No, after you, I insist"  That's the model for how we can coexist without activating our hot-headed human nature.
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philfort
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 4:25 pm 
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mosey wrote:
Quote:

https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/ClothFacemasks.pdf

You do not need to wear a cloth face covering in your home when you are only with people in your household, or when you are alone in your caror with family members. You do not need to wear one when you exercise outdoors with plenty of space.


I see you cleverly forgot to include the very next line. Didn't think anyone would click the link I guess? I put it in an even larger font than you did.

Quote:
You do not need to
wear one when you exercise outdoors with plenty of space. Its a good idea to keep a face
covering in your pocket in case you come across other people.

Which is pretty much exactly what I said.
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Kim Brown
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 4:53 pm 
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pula58 wrote:
I was hiking on the Scott Paul trail one day, and a trail runner suddenly appeared, and was yelling.

That's where I had the issue with the running banshee; same trail.

Anyway, I'm begging people to leave off the damn mask issue.

The bickering, finger-pointing, and snitching makes me want to stab someone.

Hm. I wonder if the altercation at the beginning of this thread had anything to do with ma ---- never mind.

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Brian R
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 4:53 pm 
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philfort wrote:
Brian R wrote:
This isn't a CDC guideline--and I don't wear a mask outdoors. Will not. Sorry, but this a choice issue.

Just wear a neck scarf and pull it up if you see others coming your way with a mask on. It's really not that difficult.

Passing by someone outdoors is super low risk, but a lot of people don't even want to take that risk. Absolutely refusing to make even the most basic accommodations for others seems like pretty anti-social behavior. Ask yourself why it's so important to you to make that statement.

By your own admission there is "super low risk" outdoors. I'm seeing, maybe, one-in-ten hikers wearing a mask--and the ones inclined are absolutely free to do so. Still, I find it strange when the hiker who stops, puts on a mask as I pass, and refuses to acknowledge the common courtesy of a simple "hello" is now noble--and I am somehow "anti-social?" That's just bizarre.

iron wrote:
i suspect many that tout the mask "choice" or vaccine "choice" are also ones that don't believe in a certain choice made by women. i won't comment further on the hypocrisy of "choice" here.


Wow, um--ok?  You understand (or maybe not) that this argument works in both directions, right? In other words, one could criticize you for being pro-choice even as you damn others for, well, exercising the choice not to wear a mask on a trail.


Back to the turn, Cascadeclimber, whose posts I enjoy a lot, took a thread about hikers, mountain bikers, and knives--to the admonition "BTW: wear your mask!" I could be wrong, but I think this is the same guy who made the first summertime ascent of the Central Buttress of Willis Wall a couple decades or so back? If so, how does that risk compare to dying of Covid? or the flu? or in a car? And was it the NPS's responsibility to mitigate the risk you chose to take? No. At the end of the day, we are responsible for ourselves and our families. And yes, we should take reasonable precautions to ensure our actions don't hurt society within the bounds of our sacred freedoms. But there is being reasonable--and there is being ridiculous.
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 5:37 pm 
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Anyone see parallels between what should have been a courteous passing escalating into a stabbing ... and an informational trail incident thread escalating to an argument about masks and abortion?  While I have some well thought-out opinions on these issues as well, maybe we could discuss elsewhere, and simply ignore those who bring them up here?  If for nothing else than respect for the folks who work hard to keep this place going.
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philfort
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 6:12 pm 
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mosey wrote:
This is a real issue for me. People continually block the trail to put their masks on. People try and start fights with me over a two second encounter, where they didn't even begin "filtering the air" until they were ten feet away, leaving me to breathe in all of their previous exhalations as I climbed. I am curious to think what *you* have justified as "plenty of space," contrary to what our government has stated multiple times.

My general attitude is to try to respect others and just be a decent person. Isn't this what this thread is all about?

I don't think I've ever had an altercation on the trail. You say you're having them all the time?
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 6:13 pm 
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iron wrote:
i suspect many that tout the mask "choice" or vaccine "choice" are also ones that don't believe in a certain choice made by women. i won't comment further on the hypocrisy of "choice" here.

Still not wearing a mask.  100% support abortion and a woman's right of choice.

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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 6:28 pm 
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I do not know if this is relevant but the ascending hiker has a massive advantage over the descending one if they know anything about martial arts. Does not apply if they are a biker with clipped in petals. The race is not always to the fleet of foot, beware the hubris.

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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PostThu Mar 25, 2021 7:51 pm 
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Okay! I get all this stuff, but, CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME!..... WERE THEY WEARING MASKS!!!!?

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