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RumiDude
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RumiDude
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PostTue Jun 29, 2021 3:21 pm 
Anne Elk wrote:
I recall my first-ever hike to Lake Constance. On some of those more rooty, steep sections, there were small red metal "flags" hammered into trees. I'm pretty sure the hikers and climbers didn't install them.
If you are referring to the Lake Constance Trail, well it's an actual official trail/route. I have not been there in a while, but they even had a bear wire at the lake. You also have to have a reservation to camp there. Also, don't be so sure that climbers did not originally place those metal red tags. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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PostTue Jun 29, 2021 5:21 pm 

ForbinsAscent, Navy salad, jaysway, Waterman, neek  Chief Joseph
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Anne Elk
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Anne Elk
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PostTue Jun 29, 2021 5:33 pm 
RumiDude wrote:
]If you are referring to the Lake Constance Trail, well it's an actual official trail/route. I have not been there in a while, but they even had a bear wire at the lake. You also have to have a reservation to camp there. Also, don't be so sure that climbers did not originally place those metal red tags.
Yes, it became "official" at some point but I recall reading somewhere that it was originally an unofficial "climber's route". My point in bringing it up was to illustrate that some route markers are a good thing. My trips to Lake Constance pre-date the bear wire and need for a reservation. Those were the good old days. I may have even been up there alone a few weekday nights back in the 80's.

"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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Anne Elk
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Anne Elk
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PostTue Jun 29, 2021 5:51 pm 
Cyclopath - re your rock sculpture pic - that looks like it might be one of Andy Goldsworthy's more enduring creations.

"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood

Cyclopath
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kbatku
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kbatku
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PostTue Jun 29, 2021 6:47 pm 
I like the hundreds of cairns on the way to the Enchantments. I've sure they've saved many people from getting lost up there

Bedivere
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RumiDude
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RumiDude
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PostTue Jun 29, 2021 9:56 pm 
Anne Elk wrote:
RumiDude wrote:
]If you are referring to the Lake Constance Trail, well it's an actual official trail/route. I have not been there in a while, but they even had a bear wire at the lake. You also have to have a reservation to camp there. Also, don't be so sure that climbers did not originally place those metal red tags.
Yes, it became "official" at some point but I recall reading somewhere that it was originally an unofficial "climber's route". My point in bringing it up was to illustrate that some route markers are a good thing. My trips to Lake Constance pre-date the bear wire and need for a reservation. Those were the good old days. I may have even been up there alone a few weekday nights back in the 80's.
Well often what was OK in "the good old days" makes for a problematic present. As I mentioned in my post about my objectionds to cairns and route markings on off trail routes, cairns tend to beget more cairns. The proliferation of cairns is ridiculous, so much so that it often serves to confuse and lead people astray rather than help. And yet, people still build even more further adding to the chaos of cairns. I have hiked a fair amount in the Grand Canyon where proper trails hardly exist. Even there, cairns are almost of no use. I always had the route description on my phone as well as printed out rather than trying to decipher cairns and such. And the main reason is that it is impossible to know whether the cairn is marking the route I was on or something completely different. I tried as much as possible to ignore cairns and rely on the route description, map, etc. If you are on an off trail route and build a cairn to show others the way, only to discover later you got the wrong gully or ridge or whatever -- do you go back and tear down the cairn you built? My guess is you don't unless you are forced to retrace your route all the way back to that spot because you cliffed out or something. But that cairn will remain to confuse and misdirect all who come after you. Just stop making cairns. In my experience, the number of cairns marking the wrong way far outnumber those marking the correct way and there is no way to know which is which. YMMV If you figured out the correct way on an off trail route, then so can others. People learn by their mistakes, so let them make their own mistakes and learn by them. And let them have the joy of correctly navigating their own route. For the most part in our wanderings off trail, we are on public lands. We should not be unilaterally making decisions about building cairns to direct people coming along after us. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."

Bedivere, Walkin' Fool, Brian Curtis, moonspots, Waterman
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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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PostWed Jun 30, 2021 9:29 am 
Karen's cairn

Chief Joseph
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ThinAir
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PostFri Jul 02, 2021 9:00 pm 
Interesting that I just found this topic. I just posted a trip report in which I mention that the trail I was trying to follow was covered in trees and branches, snow, snow runoff, and marshes. The paper map I had with me was simply not enough to navigate the terrain and the POS Garmin handheld unit I had with me is horribly inaccurate with trails, so I was trying to rely on cairns to help find my way. It didn’t take me long to realize most of these didn’t seem to get me where I was trying to go. Luckily, I have over 30 years putzing about the wilderness to figure out where I needed to go, but we have had a lot of “newbies” in the mountains this past year, and even some more moderate outdoors persons could get lost trying to follow these things. It wouldn’t bother me at all if the Forest Service started knocking over any unofficial trail markers. I am an industrial electrician, and part of my job is to identify potential risks and mitigate them to prevent accidents. This I can see being a risk. Maybe not to you, but to somebody. The ones I’ve been seeing aren’t that pretty, anyway.

coldrain108, moonspots
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RumiDude
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RumiDude
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PostSat Jul 03, 2021 9:37 am 
ThinAir wrote:
It wouldn’t bother me at all if the Forest Service started knocking over any unofficial trail markers.
About 15 years ago after a week long trip in the Grand Canyon, I met a backcountry ranger just as I was arriving back at the South Bass Trailhead. I mentioned to her the confusing maze of cairns I encountered. She told me that about twice a year they try to sweep through and kick over all the extraneous cairns that people build. I suppose they still do this. And just to be really clear, there are a few cairns that are important in the Grand Canyon. These are erected and maintained by the rangers. They usually are located at major trail junctions. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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slabbyd
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PostSat Jul 03, 2021 10:16 am 
ThinAir wrote:
It wouldn’t bother me at all if the Forest Service started knocking over any unofficial trail markers.
I’d suggest this is easily taken care of by (some part of) the public vs waiting for the FS to take care of it. Great way to feel like an old curmudgeon. A deft jab with a ski pole would make Harvey Manning proud.

Anne Elk
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fourteen410
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PostSat Jul 03, 2021 10:42 am 
It's crazy how worked up people get over a stack of rocks. Not sure why OP needed to send out an APB letting us know he kicked over a cairn. Congrats?

Navy salad, brewermd, Jake Dogfish, Chief Joseph, zimmertr
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HitTheTrail
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PostSat Jul 03, 2021 12:08 pm 
Can you even find the nicely camouflaged cairn in this photo near the edge of the Ida Lake boulder field? Since it is a valley it's probably not needed, but that bootpath comes and goes so it was reassuring and I didn't feel any need to kick it over.
Ida cairn
Ida cairn

Chief Joseph
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Chief Joseph
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Chief Joseph
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PostSat Jul 03, 2021 3:17 pm 
I guess I will never be a True Blue NWhiker since rock cairns and rock fire rings don't bother me at all. If done right, each can be useful. What I really loathe is what I saw at Kelcema lake a couple of days ago, that being a fire pit full of broken glass bottles...and idiots cutting down green trees for their fire. It's not the rocks that are the problem, people are the problem...rocks don't kill people, people do. wink.gif

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.

zimmertr, Brian R
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moonspots
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moonspots
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PostSun Jul 04, 2021 10:59 am 
Chief Joseph wrote:
If done right, each can be useful.
Yeah, properly done, that's the ticket! lol.gif
exit
exit
As an aside, can anyone here identify the trail where this "bit of wisdom" is found? dizzy.gif

"Out, OUT you demons of Stupidity"! - St Dogbert, patron Saint of Technology

Anne Elk
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ThinAir
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PostSun Jul 04, 2021 8:10 pm 
I'd rather have somebody that knows the difference between an "official" or "unofficial" one do it. I'm not saying they bother me that much. Although being taken off route is pretty f'n annoying.

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