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Kim Brown
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009
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| Mountainpines wrote: | | If just one storm can close that road at the same point, they need to think of other solutions than just cleaning it up. |
Nah; it happens all the time, and it gets repaired. You get used to it after a few decades. 
I don't know what they can do. The landscape is dynamic; putting a bridge over the site so debris would flow underneath it would mean footing it into something stable, and I'm not sure there is anything stable there. And it would require a lengthy, costly NEPA process - only for it to wipe out again. Sweeping away debris several times a decade here and there seems to work. Having to sweep away debris and a mangled bridge would be a bigger project.
Sometimes you just have to work with geomorphology when it clearly rules.
But perhaps there is something out there that they can do.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
 altasnob
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
altasnob
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kiliki
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Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Posts: 2324 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle |
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kiliki
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 Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:49 am |
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Building on Kim's post...if there's an engineering solution, would it be cost prohibitive? Is that a good use of taxpayer money? Would it get through the NEPA process? And what about the public comment process (there would be one)? Do you think most NCNP advocates would be in favor of a structure that would allow avalanches, debris flows and floods to go under rather than over it? That would have to be an awfully beefy structure to not get wiped out.
There are many engineering solutions for mountain roads. You see them in the Alps in Europe. Viaducts are popular there (as are tunnels). Is this an appropriate solution for that road, rather than simply closing it once in a while so as not to inconvenience hikers? Is it even possible?
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Kim Brown
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009
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This would definitely be a NEPA project because of birds, soils, hydrology, federal funds; and public comments periods would be involved. And you can bet North Cascades Conservation Council would object fiercely - they're the ones who fought for the Park in the first place and preservation is their schtick.
And last but not least; it's always "some damn fish" that gets in the way *
*Congressman Volker.
From Jack Ward Thomas (Fmr USFS Chief and famous for his studies prior to and in re: Northwest Forest Plan) interview by Harold Steen, USFS Historian:
the "....House Agriculture Committee...asked us to put together an array
of alternatives to address the emerging old-growth, forest-related questions in the Northwest. As we
were going out the door, Congressman Volkmer, the chair of the sub-committee, yelled out—“Don’t let us
get surprised by some damn fish!” So we laid some forty alternatives on them." 
Link to interview text
I loved Jack Ward Thomas. Side-side side note: A fast, fascinating read on it is JWT's Journals of a Forest Chief.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
kiliki
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
kiliki
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Chief Joseph
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Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 7703 | TRs | Pics
Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
| Kim Brown wrote: | | Mountainpines wrote: | | If just one storm can close that road at the same point, they need to think of other solutions than just cleaning it up. |
Nah; it happens all the time, and it gets repaired. You get used to it after a few decades.
I don't know what they can do. The landscape is dynamic; putting a bridge over the site so debris would flow underneath it would mean footing it into something stable, and I'm not sure there is anything stable there. And it would require a lengthy, costly NEPA process - only for it to wipe out again. Sweeping away debris several times a decade here and there seems to work. Having to sweep away debris and a mangled bridge would be a bigger project.
Sometimes you just have to work with geomorphology when it clearly rules.
But perhaps there is something out there that they can do. |
Right. There are many good examples, the Ice Caves trail-bridge, 3 fingers road..
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Kim Brown
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009
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| Chief Joseph wrote: | | Right. There are many good examples, the Ice Caves trail-bridge, 3 fingers road.. |
The Everett to Monte Cristo flippin' Railroad twisted into pretzels....
Bridge over Suiattle at Milk Creek (high above the river, and made of I-beams, for chrissakes)
Sunshine Point (not just the campground; the entire point is gone)
White Chuck campground
White Chuck Road
White Chuck trail
The mountain this stuff sat on
Bridge over the Chiwawa at Maple Creek
Mt. Rainier National Park was frickin' closed after the floods in 2006. They couldn't even find half of it. 
Good lord, the list goes on. It's kinda funny to see Ma Nature kick us out when she's sick and tired of us.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
ChinookPass
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
ChinookPass
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Traildoggie
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Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 158 | TRs | Pics
Location: Near Arlington |
Whine about this too much and the NCNP will just close it permanently at mp 20 if they can figure out where to put parking. that will tack a few miles and significant gain onto the trip. I dont think that would be a bad idea. its so awful crowded I doubt I'll go there again.
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Kim Brown
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There's not much whining going on about it, so no worries there. Yes, it's awfully crowded there for sure.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Randito
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9512 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:03 pm |
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| Cyclopath wrote: | | Randito wrote: | | NCNP isn't Disneyland, nor should it be. |
I don't think it's a choice between being Disneyland or accepting having people stranded for days when your roads fail. |
It would cost 10s of millions to engineer and construct a more all weather road to the Cascade Pass trailhead and even then when an unusual storm occurs it would still be vulnerable to washout.
E.g. The storm that hit the west side of Mt Rainier in November 2006 when 18 inches of rain fell in 36 hours. The park entrance was closed for six months and Sunshine Point campground has still not been repaired/relocated even today.
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:32 pm |
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It being an expensive engineering project, I don't disagree with. To say it's a choice between that and being Disneyland? I guess Mickey Mouse lives in Olympic National Park then.
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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:33 pm |
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| Kim Brown wrote: | | White Chuck trail |
Exquisitely beautiful. I saw a mountain goat and enjoyed lunch with the glacier below me. I've been wanting to go back and bike the road that leads to the trail. 
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Randito
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:41 pm |
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| Kim Brown wrote: | | There's not much whining going on about it, so no worries there. Yes, it's awfully crowded there for sure. |
Yeah, I think closing the road farther down is a possibility if storm events and washouts become more frequent than they have been in prior decades.
Forest road closures like the Carbon River road, West side road, Middle Fork Snoqualmie road, Taylor River road, White Chuck road are to be expected now that revenue from timber sales and mining are greatly reduced.
Unless there is something akin to a new CCC program I expect that the way of the future.
Snoqualmie Lake is way more pristine now that is 9 miles from TH than when it was a 2 mile hike. So roads falling apart is not all bad.
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kiliki
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Joined: 07 Apr 2003
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kiliki
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Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:56 pm |
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In the 1970s they tried to close it before the end (can't remember where exactly, maybe at the park boundary?) and use shuttles to get people to the end. This started due to the toll hikers and backpackers were taking on the pass environment. But no one liked that idea. No one wanted to ride a shuttle. The RV lobby made a pitch for allowing them to drive to the end, since they were just looky-loos, and making hikers take the shuttle, since they were doing the damage. None of it happened obviously. But as we have more extreme weather events, maybe it will.
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Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12831 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:02 pm |
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| Randito wrote: | | "... the Carbon River road, West side road..." |
The closures of the Carbon River Road and the Westside Road at Mt. Rainier National Park had nothing to do with timber harvesting or mining.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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coldrain108
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Joined: 05 Aug 2010
Posts: 1858 | TRs | Pics
Location: somewhere over the rainbow |
| Randito wrote: | | Snoqualmie Lake is way more pristine now that is 9 miles from TH than when it was a 2 mile hike. So roads falling apart is not all bad. |
Yeah, adding a little sweat equity is generally not a bad thing.
(and I'm old, hobbled and pressed for time)
Since I have no expectations of forgiveness, I don't do it in the first place. That loop hole needs to be closed to everyone.
Since I have no expectations of forgiveness, I don't do it in the first place. That loop hole needs to be closed to everyone.
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Slim
This space for rent
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 560 | TRs | Pics
Location: Falling off a turnip truck |
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Slim
This space for rent
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Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:36 am |
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"Lean mean money-making-machines serving fiends"
Cyclopath, HikingBex
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