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Randito
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Randito
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PostSat Aug 28, 2021 1:39 pm 
kw wrote:
but more to the references to Harvey Manning

Even back in the "good old days" Harvey Manner was a grouchy curmudgeon that had quasi-religious views of the proper rituals for experiencing the outdoors -- he even created an "Aasagrd Pass" entry in one his  later"100 hikes" book specifically to discourage people from going that way instead of via Snow Creek.

We do all own him a debt of gratitude for his effors at wilderness presevation -- otherwise I suspect that that Alpental's lift system would include the summit of Snoqualmie Mtn and there would likely be a ski resort on Cashmere Mountain as well as logging roads to anywhere in the Cascades that had marketable timber in the '60s.

All the "clutching at pearls" complaints about trail runners are telling.

e.g.

thuja wrote:
Surprising we don't hear more stories of TRs being rescued by SAR.

IME experience with trail running is that the folks that participate in trail running are already quite experienced in hiking, climbing and are knowlegable about the 10 essentials and have a good idea what they really need and what just ends up being extra weight in the pack.

Which is likely why that trail runners aren't generating news worthy SAR stories in the media -- they actually have knowledge and experience of what they are doing,  as well as a high level of fitness.

Ski wrote:
The old "stop and smell the roses" thing is missed by those who are moving at running speed.

This is certainly true -- however when one is trail running it is possible to enter something called "flow state" which is also an enjoyable experience.

I reject the orthodox notion that there is one correct way to experience our trails and wilderness.  I also am grateful to Manning, et al for fighting to preserve lands from motorized and commerical use in generations past.

Moose, zimmertr, hbb
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silence
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silence
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PostSat Aug 28, 2021 1:41 pm 
I've hiked many times with the Mountaineers and their goal was always only to get to the top and never to stop and smell the roses. Being a photographer I found myself lagging behind along the trail to take pix and once at the top pointing out all the places that were familiar to me. They didn't have a clue about what I was seeing. But, over the years I noticed that they started to stop long enough to take it ALL in.


Agree ... there is such a fine line between preserving the wilderness and promoting it in order to protect it. I think Harvey struggled with this as much as I do. But, bottom line ... it's there for ALL of us to enjoy, but to preserve and protect as well. We never want to lose it.

Randito wrote:
Even back in the "good old days" Harvey Manner was a grouchy curmudgeon that had quasi-religious views of the proper rituals for experiencing the outdoors -- he even created an "Aasagrd Pass" entry in one his  later"100 hikes" book specifically to discourage people from going that way instead of via Snow Creek.

We do all own him a debt of gratitude for his effors at wilderness presevation -- otherwise I suspect that that Alpental's lift system would include the summit of Snoqualmie Mtn and there would likely be a ski resort on Cashmere Mountain as well as logging roads to anywhere in the Cascades that had marketable timber in the '60s.

--------------
PHOTOS: https://www.flickr.com/photos/33792231@N00/sets
FILMMAKING: http://www.crestpictures.com/

Keep a good head and always carry a light bulb. – Bob Dylan
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Randito
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Randito
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PostSat Aug 28, 2021 1:54 pm 
silence wrote:
I've hiked many times with the Mountaineers and their goal was always only to get to the top and never to stop and smell the roses.

Experiences with the Mounties is highly variable depending on the trip leader.     Sadly I agree that many trip leaders seem to be keen on setting a personnel best time.

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thunderhead
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PostSat Aug 28, 2021 1:58 pm 
Theres a time for max effort and theres a time for stopping to smell the roses.  I enjoy both on different days.

The slow a day or two after the fast, generally smile.gif

silence
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Ski
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PostSat Aug 28, 2021 1:58 pm 
Randito wrote:
"...however when one is trail running it is possible to enter something called "flow state" which is also an enjoyable experience..."

Never having been a runner, I'm not familiar with your "flow state" term, but:

I walk fast. Very fast.
Not as fast as I was. (Because the older I get, the faster I was.)

If you're talking about that "zone" you get into when the heart rate increases and the endorphins start pumping, that is not missed on me. wink.gif

But when I'm moving that quickly, there's no way I'm going to notice a clump of fairy bells or turkey tails off the side of the trail. Only Superman had eyeballs that fast.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Randito
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Randito
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PostSat Aug 28, 2021 2:43 pm 
Ski wrote:
But when I'm moving that quickly, there's no way I'm going to notice a clump of fairy bells or turkey tails off the side of the trail. Only Superman had eyeballs that fast.

I'm not asserting that while in "flow state" that one notices all the intimate details,  just that "flow state" in and of itself is an enjoyable experience.

I can enjoy both sorts of activities,  but not usually on the same trip or at least at the same moment.

One of my favorite hiking partners likes to hike at a relaxed pace (they have a fair amount of scar tissue from old injuries) and take a nap on the lunch stop.  I enjoy hiking with them very much. With another hiking partner, we rarely exceed 1/2 mile per hour overall pace, not less than 200 photos taken on trips with them.  However I also enjoy doing stuff like what I call the Rattlesnake Duothon,  where I'll drive to the North Rattlesnake trailhead and then bike using the Snoqualmie Valley trail to the south trailhead and trail run back to the car.

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Ski
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PostSat Aug 28, 2021 2:55 pm 
Randito wrote:
I'm not asserting that while in "flow state" that one notices all the intimate details,  just that "flow state" in and of itself is an enjoyable experience.

We're on the same page there.

As I said in my first post in this thread (as well as in others) I have no issues with runners. Or mountain bikers. Or equestrians. Or motorcycles.

I would assert that different methods are going to garner different results, however.

--------------
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."

RumiDude
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JVesquire
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PostSat Aug 28, 2021 3:56 pm 
FWIW, events I’ve been in like Cascade Crest 100 and a few others emphasize that participants need to be extra nice to hikers and others, cognizant of the bad impression doing otherwise has for the sport. They also require 8 hours of trail maintenance for all of their participants and waitlisters.

RumiDude
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Joseph
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Joseph
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PostSat Aug 28, 2021 5:26 pm 
kw wrote:
How exactly is someone supposed to pass without you moving to give them space on the trail? I understand it might be frustrating if they’re rude about it, but passing is just something that happens on a singletrack trail, regardless of whether they’re a runner or just a quicker hiker.

Also, I’ve never really understood this doubt and skepticism that seems to always be present towards the “motivations” of anyone in the wilderness that isn’t hiking or on a horse. People love to say the same thing with mountain bikers, just because someone isn’t hiking doesn’t mean they’re in the wilderness for any reason other than yours. I guess you could say maybe the FKT people are just there because of speed, but quite frankly I’ve never had a problem with them not appreciating the wilderness either. Just because you choose to lug a heavy pack on your back doesn’t mean you are in touch with the outdoors more.

Ultimately, while I don’t mean this as a response to you, but more to the references to Harvey Manning and just attitudes in general, people need to catch up with the present and give up on being wilderness purists. There’s a million ways to be in the outdoors and people moving slightly faster than you on a trail is about the least disruptive possible.

You'll notice, I don't begrudge trail runners their right to run on trails.  That doesn't mean I have to like them. But to each his/her own.

Cyclopath, ChinookPass
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JeremyJ
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JeremyJ
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PostSat Aug 28, 2021 5:48 pm 
This Joseph guy sounds like a real peach.

Joseph
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Joseph
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Joseph
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PostSat Aug 28, 2021 9:34 pm 
I have opinions like anyone else.  Deal with it.

Chief Joseph
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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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PostSun Aug 29, 2021 12:56 pm 
JeremyJ wrote:
This Joseph guy sounds like a real peach.

Usually, strong opinions go with things you love or are passionate about.  This Joseph guy obviously loves the outdoors.  That makes him alright in my book even if we disagree about trail runners.

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Foist
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Foist
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PostSun Aug 29, 2021 3:36 pm 
Yeah, Joseph is being a big boy about it and admitting it's just his feelings and not an objective view about trail runners.  Others clearly have similar feelings but try to twist them into something resembling a legitimate beef.  There really isn't one at all. I think the only explanation for the resentment is people's insecurities (as Joseph basically admits).  But come on, there are almost always people stronger or more fit than you, no matter what your abilities.  I actually like seeing super-athletes on the trail, because I admire and appreciate what amazing things humans can sometimes do.  I'm happy to move out of their way so that this amazing feat can continue.

More specifically, the whole "they made me get out of the way" thing just doesn't make sense.  People have to move past each other on narrow trails all the time, no matter how fast they're going. Who cares? And it's the people going at a more extreme pace -- very fast or very slow -- who need to deal with this more (just think about it).  So, to the average-pace resentful hikers out there -- as annoyed as you are, the trail runner must deal with getting around other hikers much more frequently than you do. I imagine most of them accept this as a price of running. I'm familiar with this problem from the other extreme -- hiking a popular trail with small kids on short legs.

zimmertr, dave allyn
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Downhill
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PostSun Aug 29, 2021 4:17 pm 
Cyclopath wrote:
I'm happy for anybody doing anything nondestructive in nature.   up.gif

I think this is pretty close to my point of view.

I don't mind trail runners and I don't see how they are doing any harm.  I would much rather step aside and let a runner pass than horses.

Personally, I am conflicted about the trail-running concept.  On one hand, I think maximizing my experience in the alpine is preferable to minimizing my time up high.   I passed a runner coming down from an extremely scenic (and popular) destination a couple of years ago and as she passed I asked her "did you have a nice visit?".  She looked at me like I had just asked her "where can I catch the B51 to Brooklyn?". she glanced at her watch then kept on running.  Had she stopped and enjoyed her time there, or did she just tick the box, turn 180 and push on with her PB ET?

On the other hand, speaking as a non-runner, if I *was* to be a runner - going for a run on a trail to a beautiful spot is a much better choice over the other alternatives most runners choose, in town or along the road, etc.  So why not go run a trail instead?  Get a little scenery - maybe some boulder-hopping for balance and a bunch of elevation - sounds pretty good to me.

Last summer I met a couple in the Cascade Pass parking lot who were planning a late-night start on the Ptarmigan Traverse with the goal of setting a PB ET (I can't remember, but it think it was single-digit hours?), and all I could think of was "but what about all those gorgeous camp/bivi spots along the way?  The sunrises and sunsets??"

I wouldn't want to do the traverse in a matter of hours (ofc I couldn't) - but I really can't think of many better spots to "go for a run".

Gil, Cyclopath
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markweth
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PostMon Aug 30, 2021 2:34 pm 
I'm an avid backpacker and occasional trail runner. I'd sum up the difference, from my experience, in this way:

Backpacking/hiking is like reading a book.

Trail running is like watching the movie version of said book.

They're fundamentally different experiences, despite happening in the exact same place. It's a pretty interesting concept to ponder, at least for me.

That said, I think people that only trail run and never backpack are missing out a lot more than the other way around (same for people who only watch movies/shows but never read books).

As far as the user-conflicts and etiquette, I've never had any negative experiences but my sample size is rather small as trail running isn't very popular in the areas I typically backpack/hike/trail run. However, I think that organized trail runs have absolutely no place in wilderness areas or national parks.

Aussie, graywolf, solohiker, Joseph, Cyclopath
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