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Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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 Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:58 am |
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| Chief Joseph wrote: | | a lot of times they loan their coats, sleeping bags, etc to injured hikers and sometimes don't get them back. |
I just spent a moment thinking about which gear of mine I would be ok never seeing again and which would upset me. Like, they don't make that jacket in that color anymore, it reminds me of a glacier fed lake I've had so many good times at, if I don't get this back I'm gonna push you off a cliff myself and someone else can rescue you! 
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snoqpass
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Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 351 | TRs | Pics
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snoqpass
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Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:59 am |
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There is actually some Fire Depts that will bill for responses especially for EMS
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neek
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Joined: 12 Sep 2011
Posts: 2337 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle, WA |
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neek
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Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:01 pm |
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| catsp wrote: | | I'm not sure I see this as an all-or-nothing issue, and thus I'm not sure I see a problem with charging for rescue. I don't mean an amount that represents the true full cost of the rescue, but just some sort of modest charge to help with funding. $1,000 maybe? Maybe as low as $500? I understand the argument about economic hardship, but that seems easily addressable by providing for a waiver upon proof of such economic hardship. |
One of my favorite examples (mentioned in Freakonomics) of how this can go wrong: A daycare started charging $3 for late pickups. The result? The rate of these incidents went UP. The fee made the whole thing legit in people's minds. Also a rescue often costs way more than $1K, but donors might be less willing to donate if they see that people are being "charged".
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Schroder
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Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 6722 | TRs | Pics
Location: on the beach |
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Schroder
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Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:15 pm |
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Searches and carry-out rescues (when the weather is too severe to get a helo in) require a lot of people. The further from the road, the numbers increase. There would never be enough funding to support even a fraction of the effort required. It works now - there's no reason to change it.
 Cyclopath, reststep, Chief Joseph, ChanceShowers
Cyclopath, reststep, Chief Joseph, ChanceShowers |
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Randito
Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 9513 | TRs | Pics
Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:54 pm |
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| snoqpass wrote: | | There is actually some Fire Depts that will bill for responses especially for EMS |
Can you provide some specific examples?
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Schroder
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Joined: 26 Oct 2007
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Location: on the beach |
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Schroder
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Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:05 pm |
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| catsp wrote: | | But to go off on a completely different trail, how about adding a voluntary donation section on the annual Discovery Pass? And because many of us like to virtue signal, if you donate at least $___, your pass notes you as a supporter of SAR and is printed in some other color. |
SAR is the responsibility of the local law enforcement jurisdiction and the Discover Pass is State. This might create a nightmare in trying to distribute those funds. Also, some areas (like Snohomish, King and Pierce Counties) have about 90% of the SAR effort whereas Grant County might not ever have a need.
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ChanceShowers
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Joined: 06 Sep 2018
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Location: Seattle |
Plus then part of that donation needs to go to the costs of administrating the program of collecting and distributing the funds. It's much more efficient to simply donate to your local volunteer search and rescue organization.
Cyclopath, Chief Joseph
Cyclopath, Chief Joseph |
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snoqpass
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Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 351 | TRs | Pics
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snoqpass
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Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:56 pm |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:05 pm |
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| catsp wrote: | | I understand the argument about economic hardship, but that seems easily addressable by providing for a waiver upon proof of such economic hardship. |
Means testing, or as I like to call it "prove you are poor", is a dehumanizing experience. I have had that experience and can testify to the fact it is significant and not a good thing.
| catsp wrote: | | I'm also not sure how much a modest financial cost would truly impact the rescue call decision making process. I think for me, I wouldn't hesitate so much because of potential cost, but rather for the potential embarrassment. |
If a person wouldn't hesitate to call for help because of potential cost, then they may not realize how great of a barrier it can be to those of limited finacial resources. And similarly they also have the barrier of embarrassment of calling in for help.
I know of a woman suffering from a broken leg who refused heli extraction because she thought she would be charged and did not have insurance coverage. This happened on a trail work party.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
Cyclopath, kw
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
Cyclopath, kw
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Randito
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:52 pm |
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Discussion imposing costs on injured or otherwise distressed individuals is fundamentally flawed.
If the theory is that if people know they might be billed for rescue services they will be more careful about what they do and thus fewer incidents will occur -- the people proposing such measures would need to prove through actual studies of human behavior that this is the case.
Earlier in the thread an example was given of how imposing a modest fee for late pickup of children from daycare actually increased tardiness.
Imposing a high charge for rescue services can -- also given an example earlier in this thread result in people resisting or evading rescue efforts.
The fundamental premise of this thread presumes that there is a problem that can be to be solved.
Given that nobody heads into the mountains with the intention of getting into trouble I think the premise that any sort of policy change can reduce incidents is shaky at best.
Malachai Constant
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Gil
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Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 4062 | TRs | Pics
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Gil
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Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:59 pm |
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I would support some sort of insurance with proceeds going to SAR. I already contribute to a couple of SAR organizations, anyway. After a couple of frightening problems out in the boonies, I also carry an InReach device and have tried to reduce risk in other ways..
Friends help the miles go easier.
Klahini
Friends help the miles go easier.
Klahini
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neek
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Joined: 12 Sep 2011
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Location: Seattle, WA |
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neek
Member
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Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:04 pm |
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A more effective option (for reducing SAR costs) might be to subsidize or provide personal locator beacons to those who can't afford them.
Cyclopath
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Randito
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:58 pm |
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| catsp wrote: | | I was strictly speaking to the prospect of imposing costs to help defer the cost of rescue services, as long as the amounts were relatively modest. That others disagree with even that is, of course, fine. |
The problem with imposing costs on folks that need help is that it can discourage them from seeking help.
It's sinmilar to the problem of people not having health insurance -- when they don't have it they don't seek medical attention until they are really really sick --so an illness that could have be treated with a few bucks of antibiotic ends up with someone in the ICU and hundreds of thousands of medical bills that the tax payers get to pick up.
Search and Rescue needs to be supported just as much as the fire department and the police department.
This discussion is so ridiculous -- do the people that suggest charging for rescues also think we should be charging people when the fire department performs CPR on a heart attack patient ? or rescues a cat from a tree or as recently happened to someone I know came out to investigate a Carbon Monoxide detector that was beeping due to an expired battery?
All of those fire department services have an element of "preventable human error" should we also be charging those folks for their "mistake"?
dave allyn
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:46 pm |
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My reason for beginning this thread discussion was because whenever some perceive a rescue/SAR mission was needed due to the individuals' recued negligence/foolishness/ignorance there are always some that suggest there should be a cost for rescue in one form or another. And according to this NYT article, it has become a recent trend among some states.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Malachai Constant
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 16092 | TRs | Pics
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Probably the majority of civilians think climbing and even hiking are foolish.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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