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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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PostSun Oct 24, 2021 2:32 pm 
I think Americans are puritanical in a lot of ways, and there is a pervasive belief that fun is dangerous. You shouldn't take risks just for the sake of having fun.
Schroder wrote:
Searches and carry-out rescues (when the weather is too severe to get a helo in) require a lot of people. The further from the road, the numbers increase. There would never be enough funding to support even a fraction of the effort required. It works now - there's no reason to change it.

Randito
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Kim Brown
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PostSun Oct 24, 2021 6:28 pm 
Who would be the judge? In 2015, people on Facebook were encouraging new hikers to go to Hidden Lakes lookout during that low snow winter, and told them to not worry about snow (there was snow). If someone needed rescue as a result of poor advice given, who will be the judge of that new hiker? Bill the costs because they chose the wrong source? Or if someone who may not be that sharp made decisions that you and I think are dumb, but given that person's limited mental capacity makes sense to them; and they got into a jam - how would you judge? How about the grandpa with dementia who leaves his home to go for a walk and gets lost in town? Would the family be charged for not locking grandpa up so he can't get out? Who would prepare the bill and who would collect the money, where would it go, and who would pay the staff that handles it? I don't agree people should be charged for many reasons already stated.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert

Randito
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neek
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neek
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PostSun Oct 24, 2021 6:37 pm 
Kim Brown wrote:
Who would be the judge?
I think a nwhikers poll for each incident would be acceptable. We're pretty good at judging.

zimmertr, Cyclopath  Anne Elk, IanB, brewermd, Kim Brown, Chief Joseph, RumiDude, Randito
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BigBrunyon
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PostSun Oct 24, 2021 7:42 pm 
Needs to be an exception to the rule if you have over a certain number of instagram followers!!! There comes a point for some of these Big Time Influencers where the income from each post is so much that it makes business sense to just PAY and call in a SAR heli to get to another sought after destination ASAP for the next post!!! Some of the biggest Big Names are already doing this at the 25k level!! Rakin in millions from instagram and leveraging SAR as a chauffeur service!!!!!

Noheaperture
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kvpair
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kvpair
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PostMon Oct 25, 2021 1:04 pm 
BigBrunyon wrote:
Some of the biggest Big Names are already doing this at the 25k level!! Rakin in millions from instagram and leveraging SAR as a chauffeur service!!!!!
Really! Is there any evidence for this? It seems so morally bereft that I'd be surprised. But perhaps I'm just naive...

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Randito
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Randito
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PostMon Oct 25, 2021 9:59 pm 
kvpair wrote:
Really! Is there any evidence for this? It seems so morally bereft that I'd be surprised. But perhaps I'm just naive...
I don't know about the SAR angle there -- but Instgram, YouTube and other Social Media influencers are big enough business that coaching influencers has become a substantial business itself. Some SoCal friends of my son works as an influencer coach/motivator and he has bought a nice house in LA -- a real estate market even more expensive than Seattle.

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kvpair
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kvpair
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PostTue Oct 26, 2021 7:24 am 
Randito wrote:
I don't know about the SAR angle there -- but Instgram, YouTube and other Social Media influencers are big enough business that coaching influencers has become a substantial business itself. Some SoCal friends of my son works as an influencer coach/motivator and he has bought a nice house in LA -- a real estate market even more expensive than Seattle.
Funny! And sad at the same time. It is kind of like the Klondike Gold Rush when the people who got rich were the ones selling shovels etc. Basically selling the hope that you'll make it. And hardly anyone does.

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Randito
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Randito
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PostTue Oct 26, 2021 8:23 am 
kvpair wrote:
Basically selling the hope that you'll make it. And hardly anyone does
My friend's son only works with influencers that have substantial followers and income. He helps them maintain their motivation. Once one has developed a following, there is tremendous pressure to keep producing content. Viewership and income fall off quickly when there isn't a steady stream of new posts. Burnout is a substantial issue.

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kvpair
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PostTue Oct 26, 2021 8:47 am 
Returning to the context of the OP, I'm tempted to make an exception for this guy.

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Kim Brown
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PostTue Oct 26, 2021 10:06 am 
kvpair wrote:
Returning to the context of the OP, I'm tempted to make an exception for this guy.
Which is why having people judge someone's rescue is a bad idea. My knee jerk reaction is the guy's a clueless jerk. But then again - the article leaves out a LOT of details, perhaps because they aren't known by the publisher, or perhaps they just want to create outrage and lots of sharing on social media (which this is making the rounds - even NPR is reporting it). For this article SAR is telling folks to answer their phones if they are overdue and start getting a flood of phone calls. Good advice. But lack of information means our initial reaction may be incorrect. At the very least, it means we cannot judge liability to pay for his rescue.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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coldrain108
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coldrain108
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PostTue Oct 26, 2021 10:42 am 
kvpair wrote:
Returning to the context of the OP, I'm tempted to make an exception for this guy.
Funny thing, I was just involved in a little episode in the ONP at the end of August. Crazy psycho takes over Deer park - we got 5 days of absolute solitude. Things would have been much easier (but less enjoyable) if the ONP rangers had my inreach contact info. Then they would have been able to get in touch with me and advise that I evacuate the area like everyone else did or shelter in place. I wonder if they will start asking for that type of info when I apply for permits in the future. I did eventually get in touch with them on my way out, I sent a message to the WIC email address, they then put me in touch with the park communications center and we traded messages back and forth to arrange opening the gate for me. None of my outside inreach contacts had any idea anything was happening. 24 hours is pretty quick for declaring a hiker missing . I wouldn't expect people to be looking for me that fast. But then again, if I knew I was lost and running really late I would have told someone, especially if I had cell signal.

Since I have no expectations of forgiveness, I don't do it in the first place. That loop hole needs to be closed to everyone.
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Kim Brown
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PostTue Oct 26, 2021 11:51 am 
coldrain108 wrote:
But then again, if I knew I was lost and running really late I would have told someone, especially if I had cell signal.
It's not clear he was very concerned about his situation to the point he'd call for help (because he didn't, though he had a signal). Nor is it clear that he had anyone to report to, so technically, he wasn't running late. Stuff like this story, which is all over the internet now, and people ripping this guy apart like jackals based on a few paragraphs of a poorly-researched story is a sad state of our social media use - happily feasting on someone else's mistake, or that we perceived as a mistake. NOTE: When I first saw this, I ripped him up too! But did some thinking and re-reading and decided I was wrong. Maybe the guy was an awful jerk; but based on what little information we have, treating him as one isn't right. SAR can message about answering your phone without this story being circulated. Frankly, I hope we don't get more information. I hope the guy says "F**K everyone, crawl back into your social media armchairs and leave me the hell alone," and refuses to offer more. On the other hand, maybe the entire story is made up as a "teachable moment."

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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RumiDude
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RumiDude
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PostTue Oct 26, 2021 12:21 pm 
kvpair wrote:
Returning to the context of the OP, I'm tempted to make an exception for this guy.
New Hampshire has a law which allows people to be charged for rescue if it is determined they are negligent. Multiple examples of this misguided policy abound from New Hampshire; all you have to do is Google New Hampshire rescue charge or similar to find the craziness that officials there go through to charge people for rescue. One of the most egregious was this one when a 17 year old was charged $25,000 for a rescue.. Here's another bizarre episode. They ultimately did not charge him for his rescue but read this gem of a quote from Col. Kevin Jordan, who oversees the law enforcement division of the Fish and Game Department: “I could have still billed him, I just felt based on his remorsefulness, his respect, his understanding of the situation, and his promptness in get a $3,000 check off before he had to at that point showed all good signs and we had accomplished what we set out to do.” Col. Jordan is on a power trip, methinks. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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FiveNines
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PostWed Oct 27, 2021 1:55 pm 
Kim Brown wrote:
Stuff like this story, which is all over the internet now, and people ripping this guy apart like jackals based on a few paragraphs of a poorly-researched story is a sad state of our social media use - happily feasting on someone else's mistake, or that we perceived as a mistake. ... snip ... Frankly, I hope we don't get more information. I hope the guy says "F**K everyone, crawl back into your social media armchairs and leave me the hell alone," and refuses to offer more.
This girl gets it. Thank you for being a cool voice of reason Kim Brown. Also appreciate your use of quotation marks. Not a fan of the asterisks, though. Life goes on.
Kim Brown wrote:
On the other hand, maybe the entire story is made up as a "teachable moment."
You mean like the Urban Meyer lap dance videos?

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Anne Elk
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Anne Elk
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PostSat Nov 13, 2021 3:58 pm 
Bumping this thread up to share two recent stories from the NYTimes about two quite different cases in the National Parks where people were charged, both literally and legally. It makes sense in the first instance - especially to prosecute. Doctor Charged With False Report to Summon Helicopter on Denali "Federal prosecutors said the climber called rescuers to say that two other people on the mountain, the tallest in North America, were having a medical emergency. But it was a ruse." The next case just seems wrong, unless it's now Fed policy to charge for NP rescues depending on "subjective" NPS or court determinations of negligence. Probably not a good precedent. Treasure Hunter Who Got Lost in Yellowstone Must Repay Cost of Rescue The hiker's reason for being there, and his lack of preparedness are beside the point. Also being a doofus, which is often the case. "He wore a T-shirt, jeans, a light windbreaker and tennis shoes. Mr. Lantis carried a small backpack, water, bear spray, a cellphone, a walkie-talkie and a hand-held GPS. He packed no food. During his hike, Mr. Lantis noticed bear fur and droppings. When he got to the base of Mount Holmes, he decided to head back. He thought that going off trail would help avoid bears."

"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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