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Randito
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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 Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:53 pm |
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If the federal government can get into suing members of the general public for being doofuses -- the federal deficit issues will be solved -- Most of YouTube is filled with damming evidence.
 ejain  Anne Elk
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vibramhead
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Joined: 16 Mar 2010
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Location: Olympic Peninsula |
| Anne Elk wrote: | | The hiker's reason for being there, and his lack of preparedness are beside the point. |
I don't see why they should be beside the point. Lots of park visitors these days are using parks as backdrops to boost their Instagram "influencer" status, and they're taking stupid chances in the process. Essentially, they're commercializing the parks. When they get into enough trouble to trigger a rescue, that costs the rest of us money and puts rescuers' lives at risk. It's long been common practice for agencies to bill people who negligently start wildfires, and I don't see why people who recklessly trigger a rescue should be treated differently.
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dave allyn
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I don't know of any rescues in this area of an influencer. Example?
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Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
Joined: 07 Sep 2018
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Location: Seattle |
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Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
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Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:20 pm |
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| vibramhead wrote: | | Anne Elk wrote: | | The hiker's reason for being there, and his lack of preparedness are beside the point. |
I don't see why they should be beside the point. Lots of park visitors these days are using parks as backdrops to boost their Instagram "influencer" status, and they're taking stupid chances in the process. Essentially, they're commercializing the parks. |
I don't care for the social media impact on parks & wilderness either, but what these "influencers" are doing isn't illegal. As far as commercializing the parks goes, NPS is doing a fine job of that just on their own, not even counting the permits for "flyover tours", etc. Granted, the FAA has a lot to do with that one, but NPS has big input into whether such are allowed.
I used to think that people who didn't exercise the bare minimum of caution, ie, telling someone where they were going, their expected return date, getting a permit (if needed) and packing the 10 Essentials, should be at least partially liable if they had to get rescued. I've since reconsidered given the POV of the many SAR and ex-SAR people who've weighed in on this topic in numerous NWH threads. But given the trend of increasing serious mishaps and "Beartooth Panic" scenarios (search for it on NWH) putting strain on SAR resources, I'm not against pressuring these people to make significant donations to the cause, or creating some means to pay SAR staff so that they can be more available when needed. Also, having needed a flyout myself many moons ago, I recognize you can be as prepared as anyone, and sometimes s--t happens.
"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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vibramhead
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Joined: 16 Mar 2010
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Location: Olympic Peninsula |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:33 am |
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Well ths turn in the discussion leads to the inevitable question, how do you charge the dead for their body recovery? The obvious answer is you can't, regardless if they were foolish and reckless or were caught in an unpredictable landslide or similar. Or what if a person was harmed because of someone else's negligence?
It is a slippery slope once we start to assigning negligence on rescues and as many have noted, including most SAR units, it is counterproductive.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
 rocknclimb
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
rocknclimb
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Randito
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:42 am |
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Do we start charging for 911 calls to residences that catch fire due to a homeowners poor decisions? How about for heart attacks that result from unhealthy lifestyle choices? For 911 calls to respond to domestic disturbances caused by excessive alcohol consumption?
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Schroder
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Joined: 26 Oct 2007
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Schroder
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Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:44 am |
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| Anne Elk wrote: | | The hiker's reason for being there, and his lack of preparedness are beside the point. Also being a doofus, which is often the case. |
I couldn't access this article but I suspect there may be more to the story. The National Park Service often passes on outside costs of a rescue. I once did a rescue at 18,000 ft on Denali and we got the guy down to 17,000 for extraction but the only helo that could do it was a private service out of Anchorage. The subject was billed for the cost of that.
RichP, zimmertr
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BigBrunyon
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
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Location: the fitness gyms!! |
| dave allyn wrote: | | I don't know of any rescues in this area of an influencer. Example? |
Heavy influencers fake injuries all the time to get the helicopters come take them to the next photo location as fast as possible!! Then they just PAY the fees willingly plus extra dividends and favors to ensure silence goin forward! They just deal with it as a business cost.
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vibramhead
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Joined: 16 Mar 2010
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Location: Olympic Peninsula |
| Randito wrote: | | Do we start charging for 911 calls to residences that catch fire due to a homeowners poor decisions? How about for heart attacks that result from unhealthy lifestyle choices? For 911 calls to respond to domestic disturbances caused by excessive alcohol consumption? |
It seems you don't understand how emergency response works. If a 911 call results in an ambulance ride to the hospital, that ambulance is likely to be a private ambulance service, and you'll definitely be charged for it. And if a helicopter lifts your broken body from a roadside crash, you'll definitely be charged for that as well. Doesn't matter who was at fault.
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:53 am |
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| vibramhead wrote: | | Randito wrote: | | Do we start charging for 911 calls to residences that catch fire due to a homeowners poor decisions? How about for heart attacks that result from unhealthy lifestyle choices? For 911 calls to respond to domestic disturbances caused by excessive alcohol consumption? |
It seems you don't understand how emergency response works. If a 911 call results in an ambulance ride to the hospital, that ambulance is likely to be a private ambulance service, and you'll definitely be charged for it. And if a helicopter lifts your broken body from a roadside crash, you'll definitely be charged for that as well. Doesn't matter who was at fault. |
But the point remains, the cost of paying for ambulance or airlift from an accident is not determined by a judgement about how much the individual being assisted negligently contributed to their predicament. Cost and payment is usually handled through medical insurance and the relevent services.
Right now the sheriff department is responsible for most SAR events, except in national parks. Most often here in Washington and Oregon they also engage a volunteer group which assists in SAR efforts. Also involved in these recues are Coast Guard helicopter units on occassion. Even one search I am aware of on the Olympic Peninsula they used Navy aircraft. All rescues I am aware of in Washington have been without cost to the rescued individuals, regardless of the situation. Additionally I know of at least one OMR rescue of a dog.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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peter707
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Joined: 16 Jun 2022
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Location: Seattle, WA |
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peter707
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Wed Apr 05, 2023 2:32 pm |
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| BigBrunyon wrote: | | Needs to be an exception to the rule if you have over a certain number of instagram followers!!! There comes a point for some of these Big Time Influencers where the income from each post is so much that it makes business sense to just PAY and call in a SAR heli to get to another sought after destination ASAP for the next post!!! Some of the biggest Big Names are already doing this at the 25k level!! Rakin in millions from instagram and leveraging SAR as a chauffeur service!!!!! |
I am only aware of one incident.
| Quote: | | On 11 April the Federal Aviation Administration concluded its investigation into the incident and determined that Jacob had crashed his 1940 Taylorcraft BL-65 as a stunt, saying, “On November 24, 2021, you demonstrated a lack of care, judgment, and responsibility by choosing to jump out of an aircraft solely so you could record the footage of the crash.”
The FAA justified its conclusion by pointing out the fact that Jacob had attached multiple cameras to the outside of his plane, including a camera pointed in the direction of the propeller “in order to record video footage of the outside and inside of the plane during the flight.”
Other pieces of evidence the FAA cited included the sport parachute backpack container that Jacob put on before the flight, his opening the left side pilot door before claiming that the engine had failed, his failure to contact air traffic control on the emergency frequency before jumping out the plane and his lack of attempts to restart the engine by increasing airflow over the propeller.
The FAA also said that Jacob did not make any attempts to search for safe areas to land, even though “there were multiple within gliding range” in which he could have made a safe landing, and that he jumped out of the plane while holding a camera attached to a selfie stick and continued to record the plane during his descent.
Additionally, the agency found that Jacob had recovered then disposed of the plane wreckage, as well as recovered the cameras that he had attached to the plane before the flight. |
The dude (ex-olympian!) is pretending to be tired after walking 6 miles (calling 911 multiple times, or pretending to), then sets up a camera to record this:(10:40) ...
I think existing laws cover such scenarios well enough. Most youtubers are fairly responsible (although overly dramatic). Eva Zu Beck (1.63M subscribers) tried a 3-day wonderland trail itinerary, with a pretty heavy pack but not enough food.She responsibly bailed 25 miles back to Narada falls or something. Honestly she would have finished the trail if she hiked slowly, at night, instead of trying to run a hilly 50k in 8 hours with a heavy pack to finish day1 before dark (October 10, 2022, short days). Not great for views though to hike at night.
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Hiker Mama
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Joined: 25 Jun 2006
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Location: Lynnwood |
This is an interesting discussion. I don't have very many answers.
But to the point of IG influencers getting rescued, and weighing costs, recently Dan Becker and another pro YouTuber had a medical emergency on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. He probably needed a helicopter ride out, but the cost would have been huge, so they chanced it and were able to get help from a ranger who was able to plow the north road and get him to where an ambulance could meet him.
Just pointing out a real-life example of some of the themes of this conversation. Even folks who are well prepared and in shape have emergencies and face these kinds of decisions. I think there was another thread recently about this, also.
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Eric Hansen
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Joined: 23 Mar 2015
Posts: 866 | TRs | Pics
Location: Wisconsin |
Hiker Mama, I actually ran into these guys on the Bright Angel Trail as they were hiking out in February. Talked with them for awhile. They seemed reasonably competent. The one thing I noticed was they didn't have helmets with them and the North Kaibab Trail (up to the North Rim) is notably exposed to rock fall. And anytime you have a lot of snow or rain at the canyon rockfall will happen.
Wowza, just watched the video and feel like I only caught a short glimpse of the drama when I talked to the 3 that were hiking back to the South Rim. I think I would have bailed on the whole "get to the North Rim" plan as soon as it became apparent how much snow was on the North Kaibab. I've dropped into the canyon on the Grandview Trail in knee deep, untracked, powder. That was memorable and it was downhill.
Off trail rambler
Anne Elk
Off trail rambler
Anne Elk
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Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
Joined: 07 Sep 2018
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Location: Seattle |
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Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
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Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:32 pm |
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| Eric Hansen wrote: | | I think I would have bailed on the whole "get to the North Rim" plan as soon as it became apparent how much snow was on the North Kaibab. |
That was my thought, also. One could blame the "pressure" of social media to keep pushing to complete a goal, ignoring common sense and one's own internal state. Pushing yourself so badly as to develop rhabdomyolisis is beyond the pale. The circumstances also suggest that the individual was underhydrated.
They might have achieved it with a slower pace (assuming they had enough food). Probably were trying to set some kind of record to impress their audience. 
"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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