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Sculpin
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PostMon Nov 15, 2021 6:22 pm 
Dick B wrote:
a 180 degree curve inside the mountain

Wow!  That takes some pluck and determination!   strange.gif

Unfortunately none of the maps I have consulted so far show a Martin Creek above Scenic.  It looks like the prow of the ridge goes straight up above Scenic, is Martin Creek to the east or the west?

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Dick B
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PostMon Nov 15, 2021 8:27 pm 
Sculpin. I don't have a map in front of me but this is what I remember.  After the RR switch backed out of the canyon, it climbed to the west. Perhaps a couple of miles before it crossed Martin Creek and entered the tunnel. Anyone out there with a Forest Service map, or a Scenic Quad could probably give a more accurate distant reading. Also google earth and it will show Martin Ck in relation to Scenic. The ridge you describe is probably Windy Point, which has a double track tunnel that, I think, was constructed after the Wellington snow slide.
I have seen an interesting picture looking up Martin Ck from the lower trestle to the upper one. All the timber at that time had been cut or burned off so there was a clear view of both trestles, and showed the elevation gain that happened thru the tunnel. Perhaps the photo was from the Lee Pickett collection. Does anyone know how to access the Pickett collection?

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PostTue Nov 16, 2021 6:10 am 
Thanks Dick B, I see now that Martin Creek is about 4 miles west of Scenic.  This trip report describes some of the historic stuff in the area:

https://www.wta.org/go-hiking/hikes/kelley-creek-via-martin-creek-connector

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Dick B
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PostTue Nov 16, 2021 10:03 am 
I did some googling around the internet and found a large Pickett photo collection on a University of Washington library archives site. Look for "Photographs of Washington State, 1909-1936" It breaks down his photos into various categories. One dealt with the Great Northern Railroad. and another with the construction of the 7.8 mile Cascade tunnel. The GN RR category has several shots of trains leaving a snow shed, crossing the lower Martin Creek trestle and about to enter the horse shoe tunnel. The shots also show the grade as it has exited the tunnel and about to enter another snow shed as it continues to the east. One photo shows another train on the upper grade about to enter the snow shed. The photos give you some idea how the snow sheds were constructed.
One day when I have the time I may go thru the entire collection. A number of other categories to peruse.

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Bruce Albert
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PostWed Nov 17, 2021 11:01 am 
Rock visually similar to that is common, but not dominant, in cobbles and boulders in the NF Sky at Index indicating a source somewhere up that valley as well. I've often thought it would be an interesting exercise to trace unique stream sediments back to their sources, but I've never followed through.

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PostWed Nov 17, 2021 11:36 am 
Schroder wrote:
Quote:
Ideal Basic Industries purchased the old Grotto plant in 1957 from Northwestern Portland Cement Company, which had been operating the plant since approximately 1928. Ideal operated the facility between 1957 and 1967. The plant was reportedly shut down in 1967 because abundant particulate matter from the cement manufacturing process was littering the valley. The property was sold to Brazier Forest Products in 1980. Brazier filed Chapter 11 (bankruptcy) in August of 1984, at which time Rainier National Bank foreclosed on the property. Rainier still owns the property but is preparing to sell it to the City of Tacoma.

I found this interesting because I did some work for Brazier around that time and was unaware of this. I imagine both this and the plant in Concrete were under a lot of clean air pressure and the Clean Air Act would have shut them down anyway a few years later. They were probably not very profitable either compared to a modern plant.

When I moved to Index, the closure and demolition of the Grotto plant was in the recent past and there were many Index residents who had worked there. A significant number of these were suffering from lung disease, and a significant number of them died premature deaths. I've blocked out any memory of the Grotto plant, but I vividly remember the one in Concrete, partly because the leaves of the trees were white from cement or lime dust for miles around.  It cannot have been a healthy environment. The man from whom I bought property surrounding my home had been the plant electrician in Grotto and was spending his golden years being slowly consumed by emphysema. From his widow I subsequently acquired a number of items, tools and such, from the plant...all coated with that tell tale film of cement residue. Others, who had maybe cleaner jobs, or less susceptibility to disease, lived long lives, some into their nineties. My neighbor up the street, who had toiled there for twenty years received a monthly pension check of either $16 or $61 (sadly I forget which), enough any way for a daily beer, game of pool, and a good laugh about his years with Ideal.

The Ideal plants in Grotto, Concrete and elsewhere were replaced by a new, much larger, Ideal facility on the banks of the Duwamish River in Seattle which which featured much higher production and pollution controls, and which I think is still in operation.  The man from whom I bought my house had moved to West Seattle to remain employed with Ideal.  The new plant featured a monstrous 500 foot long kiln the burner of which was fed by a six or eight inch natural gas line. I worked in there a few times on kiln re-bricking shutdowns, and was told the plant was the largest single gas consumer in Seattle.  Later they converted to pulverized coal for fuel.

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Dick B
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PostWed Nov 17, 2021 4:03 pm 
Any idea where the raw material for the Seattle plant comes from? I assume mining at Concrete and Grotto stopped when both plants shut down. It would be interesting to know what the scrubbers are like that they put into plants now to keep the dust down.

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PostWed Nov 17, 2021 9:22 pm 
I recall thinking that raw materials, at least the limestone, were brought by barge.  No idea where the source is located.

Since the process from klinker out of the kiln to the finished very finely milled product is to my knowledge done dry they have to have some pretty efficient dust control.

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PostThu Nov 18, 2021 9:07 am 
Dick B wrote:
It would be interesting to know what the scrubbers are like that they put into plants now to keep the dust down.

They use electrostatic precipitators, at least that's what all kraft pulp mills use and their kilns are much larger than cement kilns.

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PostFri Nov 19, 2021 7:34 am 
Bruce Albert wrote:
No idea where the source is located.

Since I am a limestone geek I tried to figure out where limestone is close to the shores of Puget Sound.  Unfortunately, USGS seems to have changed the way to access their maps, they seem to only be available at data.gov.  The new method is so sublimely wonderful that I cannot figure how to open the, um, map.  Metadata, about this map, resources cited, click-here-and-here-and-end-up-back-where-you-started, etc.   mad.gif

If anyone can open a map of the Port Townsend quadrangle, I would love to know how you did it!  (I can still open maps from the old style pages they used to use, some have not been updated and open fine.)

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PostFri Nov 19, 2021 10:12 am 
I used to be a resto Mason in Detroit. Set tons of stone. There was some really cool old lime stone that would show tons of fossils when it weathered. Then there was the more common,, very uniform limestone from Indiana.

My wife's family live in Alpena MI, and work at the Lafarge quarry. Largest in the US.

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PostFri Nov 19, 2021 11:45 am 
Talking about of limestone sources. We lived in Texas for several years. There is a huge limestone quarry north of Austin. It shows up as a huge white sploch on Google Earth. A lot is used for stone work on houses. My job, when I moved there, was to oversee the development of residential property on a large development west of Austin. The first time I saw how they paved their roads, I was shocked. I was accustomed to seeing 3/4" crushed rock used as a base before paving. There they used crushed limestone. After it was dumped a lot of water was spread on it, then mixed it with a grader (called a maintainer in TX). The grader mixed the water and limestone until it kind of resembled baby poop. After enough mixing, it was spread, and rolled. When it dried it set up like concrete and made a very firm base. All was well as long as water was not allowed to seep in. If it did then we had baby poop again.
They quarried pink limestone out of Marble Falls, TX, out west of us, with which they built the state capital.
I was told that Texas built their capital to be larger than the DC capital (not confirmed).  The San Jacinto (567 ft.) monument is higher than the Washington monument (555 ft.). Everything had to be bigger in Texas.

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Bruce Albert
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PostFri Nov 19, 2021 2:10 pm 
Try this for excellent maps if you have not already https://www.dnr.wa.gov/programs-and-services/geology/geologic-maps/surface-geology

I suppose raw material could have arrived by rail which would widen your search a little.

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PostSat Nov 20, 2021 6:56 am 
Bruce Albert wrote:
Try this for excellent map

Thanks, Bruce, that is one of the pages that is driving me nuts.  I use Microsoft Edge.  The page says "Get our maps," then "Hover your mouse on the images below to locate specific maps. Clicking on the highlighted polygons will download the maps."

When I click on the large-scale maps the box highlights but nothing happens.  No error messages, nothing.  When I click on the smaller scale maps farther down the page a status box pops up and tells me whether the map is "published" or not, but still no map.

What happens when you click on a box?

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PostSat Nov 20, 2021 8:56 am 
Here's an older operation on the Stilliguamish that supplied cement for the Monte Cristo Railroad construction


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