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Anne Elk
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PostMon Nov 08, 2021 2:46 pm 
This is the most thought-provoking 60 Minutes episode I've seen in decades. I was going to post it under "What have you been watching on Youtube", but it seems important enough to create its own discussion thread. The complexity of the issue is right up there with other current tech and scientific controversies.
Technological progress has far surpassed humanity's moral evolution (like since forever), so I'm kinda glad I'll likely be under the dirt in a few more decades and won't see the worst this might turn into.

"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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Malachai Constant
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PostMon Nov 08, 2021 10:37 pm 
Interesting but I do not believe he understands AI and gives it far too much importance.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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neek
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PostTue Nov 09, 2021 6:46 am 
^ this contributor is clearly one of them, the non-human entities that is, trying to deflect suspicion of the danger they pose. Why else would they use an alternate spelling of Vonnegut's character, putting "AI" at the end? When we realize what's going on, it will be too late. So it goes.

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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Nov 09, 2021 8:21 am 
One must be very careful what we pretend to be because we become what we pretend…

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn

zimmertr
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Anne Elk
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PostTue Nov 09, 2021 10:22 am 
Harari's interview boosted my "progress" anxiety to a new level. Makes the data vacuums of Facebook & Google seem like child's play. I've recognized for a while my latent libertarian tendencies - I could never understand people who were just fine with "smart" appliances, Alexa/Siri, self-driving cars (where's the fun?) and the implications of eliminating hard currency. frown.gif And even Zuckerberg keeps a piece of paper taped over his laptop's video camera (I saw it).

"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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coldrain108
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PostTue Nov 09, 2021 12:58 pm 
cable folks keep trying to get me to pick up a voice remote...I said no thanks I don't need anything else listening in on me....they said "thats not how it works", I say "yeah right!"

Since I have no expectations of forgiveness, I don't do it in the first place. That loop hole needs to be closed to everyone.

Anne Elk
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Tom
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PostTue Nov 09, 2021 3:12 pm 
You actually have to hold the button down on the Comcast remotes. Maybe it's just to fool us into thinking it's not recording all the time. Your phone probably already does it.

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Anne Elk
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PostTue Nov 09, 2021 4:41 pm 
I remember seeing "A Space Odyssey" when it was first in the theaters. Making phone calls from space where you could see the person you were talking to seemed so improbable, so science fiction futuristic. Then there's this: we're on our way:

"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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cdestroyer
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PostTue Nov 09, 2021 4:55 pm 
the video phone never caught on... to bad!! any ai must obey certain laws: The first law is that a robot shall not harm a human, or by inaction allow a human to come to harm. The second law is that a robot shall obey any instruction given to it by a human, and the third law is that a robot shall avoid actions or situations that could cause it to come to harm itself. and I dont think there is a "Data" anywhere in the near future.

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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Nov 09, 2021 5:33 pm 
The Laws of Robotics have nothing to do with what is currently called AI AI as currently described has nothing to do with consciousness or autonomy. It is pretty much a glorified database which requires huge amounts of data input. A neural network is nothing more than a network in which the nodes have multiple inputs. People impute “magic” to these terms which is not present. A Predator Drone incorporates neither.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Cyclopath
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PostTue Nov 09, 2021 5:59 pm 
cdestroyer wrote:
any ai must obey certain laws: The first law is that a robot shall not harm a human, or by inaction allow a human to come to harm.
lol, no. Look at Deep Fakes. That AI basically exists to deceive people. And for incredibly creepy nonconsensual pornography.

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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Nov 09, 2021 6:54 pm 
What I am saying is AI does not make the decision people make the decision just like a well known tool can be used for self defense or hunting but also for murder. It is the person operating who decides how it is used. AI is just a tool that can be used for good or evil it does not decide how it is used. Skynet on the other hand makes the decision how it is used because it is sentient and capable of deciding between right and wrong.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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neek
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PostTue Nov 09, 2021 7:20 pm 
Malachai Constant wrote:
The Laws of Robotics have nothing to do with what is currently called AI AI as currently described has nothing to do with consciousness or autonomy. It is pretty much a glorified database which requires huge amounts of data input. A neural network is nothing more than a network in which the nodes have multiple inputs. People impute “magic” to these terms which is not present. A Predator Drone incorporates neither.
We can debate whether your description of neural networks is remotely accurate, after we discuss how the internet is a series of tubes. For the time being, maybe it's more interesting to focus on consciousness. I'm not going to watch it again, but didn't Harari explicitly say in the interview that AI isn't and doesn't need to be conscious to be dangerous? That it has more to do with the power amassed by corporations that have both huge datasets and sophisticated AI at their disposal? Consciousness is still a mystery. Whether attributed to integrated information, panpsychism, quantum entanglement, or something else entirely, there's a huge chasm between biology and psychology that we may never cross. But let's say you're a physicalist, and believe (as I do) that neurons are simply following laws of physics that we've already quantified. Humans are then nothing more than squishy meat-robots, and it doesn't matter what the underlying building blocks are, as long as they have certain properties. And given we can't predict what will happen in 10 years, let alone the 100-200 I believe Harari was talking about, who's to say we won't find a way to replicate what goes on in our brains and improve on it? Or maybe we'll approach it from the other direction, creating genetically engineered superhumans. No one is claiming magic; these are the potential realities we face. (Or we may just blow ourselves up or make Earth uninhabitable, who knows.) One thing for certain is that there is no steady state. So we had better think about where we may be headed and what kind of species we want to be. With every new tech, the stakes keep getting higher.

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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Nov 09, 2021 7:49 pm 
You seem to be missing the point. AI is dangerous, nuclear weapons are dangerous, knives are dangerous, all technology is dangerous, life is dangerous. The point I am trying to make is that AI as presently considered is not uniquely dangerous. It only becomes uniquely dangerous if it becomes sentient because we lose control. As one science student said the first machine that is more intelligent than us will be the last machine we make. As you posited we can not even define what conscious is but do know what is not and AI is not consciousnesses. It is well past the Turning test. For now at least it is in the realm of Science Fiction. My personal opinion is that we will destroy ourselves long before machines replace us. To me AI is a bete noire not to be compared to global warming, nuclear war, and sheer stupidity.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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neek
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PostTue Nov 09, 2021 8:08 pm 
Malachai Constant wrote:
The point I am trying to make is that AI as presently considered is not uniquely dangerous.
Thanks for clarifying. I don't think anyone is arguing this though. We are talking 100 years in the future, give or take.
Malachai Constant wrote:
It only becomes uniquely dangerous if it becomes sentient because we lose control.
Well, I'm not going to quibble over the definition of "uniquely dangerous". I would say the a-bomb is uniquely dangerous, but I guess you'd call it a very large knife. At any rate you can lose control of something that isn't conscious.
Malachai Constant wrote:
My personal opinion is that we will destroy ourselves long before machines replace us.
This seems likely to me as well, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the off chance it doesn't happen.
Malachai Constant wrote:
As one science student said the first machine that is more intelligent than us will be the last machine we make.
Unless I unplug it. This is a pretty naive statement, but I guess it's more of a thought framework, not to be taken literally.
Malachai Constant wrote:
To me AI is a bete noire not to be compared to global warming, nuclear war, and sheer stupidity.
Well, you know what they say. You can't fix stupid smile.gif

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