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lookout bob WTA proponent.....
Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 3043 | TRs | Pics Location: wta work while in between lookouts |
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lookout bob
WTA proponent.....
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Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:41 am
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"Altitude is its own reward"
John Jerome ( from "On Mountains")
Anne Elk, day_hike_mike, reststep
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reststep Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Posts: 4757 | TRs | Pics
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reststep
Member
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Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:32 am
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Interesting article. Thanks for posting the link.
"The mountains are calling and I must go." - John Muir
"The mountains are calling and I must go." - John Muir
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Sky Hiker Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2007 Posts: 1469 | TRs | Pics Location: outside |
Sounds like the Pro's outweigh the Con's on this one.
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moonspots Happy Curmudgeon
Joined: 03 Feb 2007 Posts: 2456 | TRs | Pics Location: North Dakota |
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moonspots
Happy Curmudgeon
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Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:12 pm
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Sky Hiker wrote: | Sounds like the Pro's outweigh the Con's on this one. |
One would think, and in my view, not a problem at all!
But: "Wilderness Watch, a nonprofit conservation group based in Montana, sent a letter in July opposing the use of helicopters."
Of course they do! They don't have to deal with volcanic problems! I certainly agree with keeping our dwindling wilderness areas, wild. Stoping the encroachment of so-called civilization is an excellent goal...but there are times when the "rules" need to be temporarily suspended in order to protect people/property. This appears to be one of these times.
If they don't like helicopters, then THEY can hike in with all the needed gear on their backs! IMHO.
And there's this:
"The Audubon Society worried about harm to the endangered marbled murrelet and spotted owl."
Well, yeah, didn't consider the danger that helicopters would pose (vs an erruption)...
"Out, OUT you demons of Stupidity"! - St Dogbert, patron Saint of Technology
"Out, OUT you demons of Stupidity"! - St Dogbert, patron Saint of Technology
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Exmoor Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 Posts: 89 | TRs | Pics Location: Snohomish |
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Exmoor
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Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:06 pm
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This should be enough to show that Wilderness Watch and whatever elements of Pilchuck Audubon write this crap are zealots rather than reasonable people. I'd love to be wrong, but every birder I'm aware of believes Spotted Owls have been extirpated from Snohomish County for quite some time.
Marbled Murrelets are unlikely to breed in the GP Wilderness because it's simply too far from the marine habitats they would commute to daily. Roughly twice as far as the furthest inland nests according to the Birds of the World account I'm looking at. Even if that was not the case these seismometers would almost certainly be miles away from any old growth and closer to the alpine and sub-alpine terrain around the mountain. That assumes that a nearby helicopter would even upset a Murrelet. Given that the place I usually go to see Marbled Murrelets is immediately adjacent to the Mukilteo Ferry and directly under the flight path of Paine Field I'm guessing they're not too bothered by noise.
The GP wilderness and the are around the mountain itself is perhaps my favorite place in the world, but a few helicopter flights to install scientific monitoring equipment won't harm a thing.
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RumiDude Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 Posts: 3579 | TRs | Pics Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:09 am
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I am of two minds on this. From the article: Quote: | With a severely lacking early warning system at the volcano, new monitors have been discussed for years. But progress has been paused again and again while agencies worked on other projects, and because of the global pandemic. |
So they put it off until NOW it's urgent, or so they say. I am sure much of this could be accomplished by stock teams rather than helicopter flights. That might reduce the helicopter flights from five flights per each station to just one or two. And the battery replacements likely could/should be accomplished easily with stock teams, IMO.
So yea, I think they should put in these seismic monitors. What is maddening is that they paused the project so many times and now are in some big rush to accomplish the install.
Wilderness Watch and Pilchuck Audubon are gonna do what they do. There's no use crying about them.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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treeswarper Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 11272 | TRs | Pics Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:21 am
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The rush is most likely due to funding being available.
I cannae read the article. It won't let me unless i send them....funding.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Schroder Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 6696 | TRs | Pics Location: on the beach |
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Schroder
Member
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Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:53 am
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RumiDude wrote: | I am sure much of this could be accomplished by stock teams rather than helicopter flights |
They couldn't do the three on Glacier Peak with stock teams. The one on Zilob Peak could be reached but only after the trail is rebuilt and cleared of some 6 ft diameter trees. Miners Ridge is the only one I could see feasible by stock.
I haven't seen any murrelets or spotted owls thousand of feet above timberline where these stations are proposed. If the fuss is over noise up in the air, the Navy flies at treetop level over this area every day.
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Anne Elk BrontosaurusTheorist
Joined: 07 Sep 2018 Posts: 2410 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
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Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:30 pm
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Schroder wrote: | If the fuss is over noise up in the air, the Navy flies at treetop level over this area every day. |
I don't see anything that's science or safety related as a problem. Given the population growth in the Puget Sound area in the last 3 decades, all of our volcanoes should have had monitors put up ages ago. It's low impact equipment. Unlike a cell tower or mobile radar devices for NAS Growler games.
"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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Kim Brown Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 Posts: 6900 | TRs | Pics
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RumiDude wrote: | So they put it off until NOW it's urgent, or so they say. I am sure much of this could be accomplished by stock teams rather than helicopter flights. |
Staff at the USFS is about gutted. Just keeping the land usable for users is difficult enough, this project had been set aside, sure. But who among us at our jobs haven't set aside projects? They need to get this done soon because 1) a 30-year permit is up for renewal on one of the existing monitor stations and 2) the Environmental Assessment is done, and the timeline has begun; a) must be done by a certain time, then b) can begin, and must be done by a certain time, etc.
From the article, "Each monitor would take about three days and five helicopter trips to install. A helicopter may be needed again every three or five years to replace the heavy batteries.
Crews will not be transported by helicopter. They’ll backpack in to install and maintain the monitors, cutting down on flight time through the wilderness area."
I personally don't have a problem with 5 helicopter trips in 3 days; it's a lot less impactful on the land than a multi-day pack string and pack camps, and yet still a lot of heavy equipment to be staged on a human's back for several miles and elevation gain. A pack string would take multiple days and multiple camps (laden mules are limited in the number miles in a day they can travel). Plus on-going extra trail maintenance, including probably blasting, to keep the trails there in stock-ready condition throughout the years - if the roads are not wiped out during those years the batteries need to be changed or other maintenance done. That's a pretty big "if."
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
Anne Elk
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
Anne Elk
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Hutch Member
Joined: 18 Jun 2009 Posts: 638 | TRs | Pics
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Hutch
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Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:40 am
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I'd be willing to bet that 5 helicopter trips is less than the average annual growth in helicopter trips for search and rescue missions in this area. I'm all about limiting manmade noise in the wilderness but the cost benefit analysis here is pretty clearly a net benefit.
Anne Elk
Anne Elk
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RumiDude Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 Posts: 3579 | TRs | Pics Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:19 pm
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Administering land governed by the Wilderness Act according to the letter AND the spirit of the law is not easy. And it should be that way. It requires planning and coordination as well as frequently resorting to plan B, C, D, and more. That's just the way it needs to be to have Wilderness.
When the Wilderness Act was proposed, written, and eventually became law, many details were discussed and debated about what was and wasn't allowed. IIRC, even wheelbarrows were discussed. I have worked many days with WTA doing trail work in and out of land governed by the Wilderness Act and I know that doing things inside Wilderness areas is waaaaay more difficult and labor intensive than elsewhere. Again, that is as it should be.
I am not an insider on USFS policy and actions, but I have had enough interactions to know that sometimes the administrators fudge things to suit either their own agenda or just plain simplify things for themselves. This proposed scenario "smells" like one of those times. I will admit I could be wrong ... but I could be right.
It's unlikely anyone's feet are going to be held to the fire on this regardless of what ends up happening. It is equally unlikely that any substantial change in practices will occur.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Foist Sultan of Sweat
Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 3974 | TRs | Pics Location: Back! |
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Foist
Sultan of Sweat
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Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:56 pm
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Oh interesting, I guess that prominent radio transmitter box thingy on Zi Iob peak also has a seismic monitor.
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Kim Brown Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 Posts: 6900 | TRs | Pics
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RumiDude wrote: | . I have worked many days with WTA doing trail work in and out of land governed by the Wilderness Act and I know that doing things inside Wilderness areas is waaaaay more difficult and labor intensive than elsewhere. Again, that is as it should be. |
I have too. Many on this site have a lot of experience working in various aspects of maintenance in wilderness, including lookout repair, blasting, rigging, bridges, fire issues, invasive species mapping, roads leading into wilderness, etc. And over the years many have been at times for, and at times against, the more labor-intensive work in maintaining in wilderness. We get it.
I can't think of a way to do this without churning up trails, large horse-camps, and dealing with on-the-ground ingress and egress issues.
But if that's how it ends up, that's how it will end up.
Or not at all. We'll see.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Pyrites Member
Joined: 16 Sep 2014 Posts: 1879 | TRs | Pics Location: South Sound |
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Pyrites
Member
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Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:05 pm
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Is Wilderness Watch a real organization or one person with a P.O. box?
Keep Calm and Carry On?
Heck No.
Stay Excited and Get Outside!
Keep Calm and Carry On?
Heck No.
Stay Excited and Get Outside!
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