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Eric Hansen Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2015 Posts: 866 | TRs | Pics Location: Wisconsin |
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puzzlr Mid Fork Rocks
Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 7220 | TRs | Pics Location: Stuck in the middle |
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puzzlr
Mid Fork Rocks
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Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:52 pm
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Here's a zoom of the last 120 days, which includes most of our wet season. There's definitely a wet side and a dry side. Lots of other maps are available at the link below the photo.
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jinx'sboy Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2008 Posts: 930 | TRs | Pics Location: on a great circle route |
puzzlr wrote: | Here's a zoom of the last 120 days, which includes most of our wet season. There's definitely a wet side and a dry side. |
Interesting.
That map does NOT match up well with the NRCS snotel river basin snow and moisture % of normal tabulations.
https://wcc.sc.egov.usda.gov/reports/UpdateReport.html;jsessionid=IpfVE2q1wqIEHZQo_baOEup50PtNfbRzUH0vUAZs.nrcsprd0383?report=Western+US.
Notice - in the tables - most WA basins are near normal to below for snow, but nearly all are OK for moisture for the water year (Oct 1 forward). I have no idea why the discrepancy between the two would be that pronounced. Maybe the map keys more on snow than total precipitation?
Anyway, I wouldn’t start to worry too much about wildfire just yet.
For the mid-elevation (below about 4500-5000’) east-side forest types it is really the moisture we get from about mid-April to mid-June that best predicts fire season severity. Snow pack does impact higher elevation fire season, as earlier melt out means the fuels have that much longer to dry out. In a year with ‘normal’ to above normal high elevation snowpack, the drying season is too short to matter a great deal.
At least, this is how the fire behavior and long term forecasters used to explain fire season forecasting to me….
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CC cascade curmudgeon
Joined: 13 Sep 2006 Posts: 647 | TRs | Pics
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CC
cascade curmudgeon
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Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:22 pm
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This illustrates the problem with suggesting a trend with data from one month. At Stevens we were indeed at about 55% of normal precip for the month of February (about 5" vs 9") on the 28th. However, as you can see below, from the 28th to March 1st we got about 6" of precip. So if it were a leap year this year we would have been above average for the month.
https://wcc.sc.egov.usda.gov/nwcc/view?intervalType=+View+Current+&report=WYGRAPH×eries=Daily&format=plot&sitenum=791&interval=WATERYEAR
We are currently above average for both precip and SWE for the water year to date, and already at the average max water-year SWE.
First your legs go, then you lose your reflexes, then you lose your friends. Willy Pep
runup
First your legs go, then you lose your reflexes, then you lose your friends. Willy Pep
runup
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Eric Hansen Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2015 Posts: 866 | TRs | Pics Location: Wisconsin |
CC, I agree that a one month precipitation map can be misleading if the perspective is not kept in mind. I saw it as another piece of the puzzle, not the final word.
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gb Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 6309 | TRs | Pics
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gb
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Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:33 am
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The answer east of the crest, particularly south of Snoqualmie Pass is pretty easy actually. Near the crest snowfall has been mediocre, though approaching normal with precip and snow this month. However, east of the crest precipitation has been poor especially farther east and even moreso east of Chinook and White Passes. However soil moisture in the Columbia Basin is likely ok or even better than average becasue of the one really big storm just after Xmas. Because that has melted slowly, it acts like drip irrigation as long as the snow cover remains. If there is no snow cover in that area, as in many years, the soil is then subjected to evaporation particularly after the inversion cloud in Eastern Washington dissipates around mid-February.
However, that one big storm has also essentially been a one-off nearer the crest east side and so total snow depth is very poor in the subalpine and mid to upper river drainages on the east side; again particularly farther east and especially east of Chinook and White Passes. This has shown up in many "observations" at NWAC in those areas. HS was reported last week at 110cm @ 6200' in the Teanaway on an east aspect, but bare of snow or nearly so on south and east aspects. This has also been found in the Manatash area with snow depths as little as 10-30 cm to 5000' in those areas even as long ago as about one month. Little snow has fallen in those areas since those observations, many of which showed bare sun-facing slopes.
Those are the areas that in Washington are at greatest risk of an early fire season. But since we can get smoke from fires over a broader area, of great concern is much of the intermountain West and particularly Nevada and New Mexico. Only an early monsoon could save those areas at this point.
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kbatku Questionable hiker
Joined: 17 Sep 2007 Posts: 3330 | TRs | Pics Location: Yaquima |
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kbatku
Questionable hiker
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Mon Mar 21, 2022 6:12 pm
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I've been thinking that the USFS response to fires is outdated. The "let her burn" theory of fire management dates back to the 1980s when forests were cooler and wetter. Now any spark and they go up like gasoline yet the Forrest Service stands by and "monitors" small fires until they inevitably explode. Perhaps we need to bring back some kind of rapid response force kinda like the old-time smoke jumpers
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Pyrites Member
Joined: 16 Sep 2014 Posts: 1884 | TRs | Pics Location: South Sound |
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Pyrites
Member
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Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:30 pm
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Keep Calm and Carry On?
Heck No.
Stay Excited and Get Outside!
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Randito Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008 Posts: 9513 | TRs | Pics Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:37 pm
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kbatku wrote: | Perhaps we need to bring back some kind of rapid response force kinda like the old-time smoke jumpers |
The old policy of fire suppression is a factor in why fires can get as big as they have been in recent years.
All the years of fire suppression have built up thick swaths of timber with ample understory.
Prior to fire suppression, natural and human set fires would burn sections of forest , clearing out understory and leaving the forest more patchy and thus more resistant to large scale fires.
With many decades fire suppression there is now a huge "backlog" of unburned material that will take decades of fire seasons to diminish.
One of the challenges now is that people have built a lot of homes in the forest, "letting nature run it's course" will displace a lot of people.
It's possible to make structures in a forest environment a lot more fire resistant, but that requires significant individual action for the collective good. Something that recent events indicate that many Americans consider to be an infringement of their rights.
rossb, dixon, tinman
rossb, dixon, tinman
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gb Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 6309 | TRs | Pics
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gb
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Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:37 am
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kbatku wrote: | I've been thinking that the USFS response to fires is outdated. The "let her burn" theory of fire management dates back to the 1980s when forests were cooler and wetter. Now any spark and they go up like gasoline yet the Forrest Service stands by and "monitors" small fires until they inevitably explode. Perhaps we need to bring back some kind of rapid response force kinda like the old-time smoke jumpers |
I think you are right, here, but the response needs to be nuanced. Letting fires burn or doing controlled burns is in the present environment a good idea when conditions are not tinder dry and when there is no prospect of it becoming so in the foreseeable future - long enough for these fires to go out completely. But with our strong recent shift towards having prolonged hot and dry summers, fires that start in those conditions should be aggressively fought and very quickly. Coming to my mind was the 2015 fire along Chelan that was very small for a number of days before finally exploding and becoming the Wolverine Fire that devastated the Entiat and ended up costing a great deal to fight to protect Holden and Lucerne.
I know Hillary Franz not long ago held a meeting (convention actually) among agencies and firefighters to discuss how best to proceed going forward.
Here are the results of that meeting: Washington State Wildfire Plan
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gb Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 6309 | TRs | Pics
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gb
Member
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Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:50 am
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It is already wildfire season in Texas, OK, and NM. Those problems should spread into the remainder of the four corners and Nevada/California barring a meteorological miracle. As an example the ski areas at Sandia, NM, and Mt. Lemmon in AZ have been closed for some time with no snow.
https://wildfiretoday.com/
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Eric Hansen Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2015 Posts: 866 | TRs | Pics Location: Wisconsin |
Bump. Wildland Fire Predictive Services posts on the first of the month and their new map shows potential outlook (for elevated chances of wildfire) thru July. In the PNW Oregon Cascades continues as a concern (shown in red), and parts of WA as well (beginning in July).
Maps here. https://www.predictiveservices.nifc.gov/outlooks/outlooks.htm
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gb Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 6309 | TRs | Pics
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gb
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Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:44 pm
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Howard Sheckter April 2nd:
Quote: | Obviously there was a head-fake to climate scientests this past winter as La Nina was supposed to fade this Spring. What actually happened, was a Kelvin Wave appearently faded in Late February and March with sub surface SSTs cooling between 140W and 170W. The demise of La Nina was supposed to occur over this Summer with the next EL Nino developing by the end of this year or during the WInter of 2023. That now has been pushed off timewise and we will have to get beyond “The Spring Barrier” to better understand when the “little girl” will leave. In checking with some climate scientists, they indicated to me that it is not pertictulary unusual for La Nina to last three years. However, 4 years would be unpresented based upon their comments. So with that understood, La Nina should be leaving us at the latest, sometime in 2023, with the odds of an especially wet winter as early as 2023/24 Fall/Winter. Just as a comment, We have wet La Ninas too. However, La Ninas bias is always drier than normal for the southern half of CA.
For us in the high country, this is going to be an exceptionally dry summer. There is likley going to be horrific forest fires in areas that have not burned yet. Locals should now stock up on HEPTA FAU filters for their homes and air purifier systems, KN 95 masks for our respiratory systems and just hope that many of the large burned areas of the forest already burned to the west and southwest of us, give us the protection we need. LIghting fires will be most concerning. At the moment, the CFS, Climate Forecast System is showing a dry bias to AZ for the month of July. The ECMWF seasonal outlook will be out on the 5th of April. So far it does not appear to be a wet monsoon season for the Desert Southwest. With that said, dry based thunderstorms are the norm in the Eastern Sierra during the summer. We do not need monsoonal flow and dynamics to get thunderstorms. When it gets especially hot in July and August, heat spells are always followed by instability and dry afternoon thunderstorms. These are the primary fire-igniters of the forest. |
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HitTheTrail Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 5456 | TRs | Pics Location: 509 |
kbatku wrote: | ...bring back some kind of rapid response force kinda like the old-time smoke jumpers |
That is a glamorous job when you are young and strong, but when you jump with a 100 lb. pack (and sometimes make hard landings) and then have to hike the gear out upwards to 20 miles your knees take a hit.
There are three ex smoke jumpers in my ski group. If they are a representative cross section of knee damage from that job, I am not sure the glamor and adventure was worth it.
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Eric Hansen Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2015 Posts: 866 | TRs | Pics Location: Wisconsin |
Howard Sheckter is definitely the voice of authority on Eastside Sierra weather, and I'd say that is a pretty stiff warning for locals there. Funny thing is Southern Sierras aren't showing up in the red zone (yet) on the Wildland Fire maps I've been posting.
Fifteen years ago I was in Bishop, setting up for a Mt. Sill project. Sill rumored to have the best view in the Sierras. Sheckter was a lifeline of timely forecasts. It was late September/early October and every other day a riff of snow would come through. 6", maybe more in the high country. Sill was 14k, and I needed to cross Bishop Pass (12k) to circle around to the peak's west side for a non-technical route.
I bagged it and went to Death Valley. The Sierras snow was unusually early but being caught on the wrong side of a 12k pass, or on funky Sierra talus with even a dusting of snow, was not for me.
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