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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman



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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman
PostFri Apr 15, 2022 3:12 pm 
I learned MIPS assembly in college and my team did a project to design a single-cycle CPU with it. I don't remember much but I thought it was fun though. While we're talking about nerd sh##, have any of you ever looked at the arbitrary code execution hacks people do with older video games? Fascinating stuff.

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FiveNines
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PostFri Apr 15, 2022 4:20 pm 
Randito wrote:
I say this as someone has interviewed many people but only hired about 1 in 50
What masquerades as selectivity is actually brutal inefficiency. Isn't your job title Engineer? Or Scientist? Or Manager? Why wouldn't you invent a better screening process? No wonder you work 80hr weeks! Mind boggling, but not surprising.

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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman



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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman
PostFri Apr 15, 2022 5:49 pm 
FiveNines wrote:
Randito wrote:
I say this as someone has interviewed many people but only hired about 1 in 50
What masquerades as selectivity is actually brutal inefficiency. Isn't your job title Engineer? Or Scientist? Or Manager? Why wouldn't you invent a better screening process? No wonder you work 80hr weeks! Mind boggling, but not surprising.
Completely dichotomy from me. I conducted at least 100 interviews for my last employer and my pass rate was probably closer to 50-75%. I guess I am the type of person that tries to find reasons to hire someone rather than reasons not to hire them though. Whether or not someone can invert a binary tree is irrelevant when 90% of business code is CRUD....

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dixon
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Randito
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Randito
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PostFri Apr 15, 2022 6:00 pm 
zimmertr wrote:
I guess I am the type of person that tries to find reasons to hire someone rather than reasons not to hire them though.
The criteria I came to depend on was a subjective question "Do I think I'm going to end up debugging this person's code at 2AM?" If the answer is no-- then hire.
zimmertr wrote:
Whether or not someone can invert a binary tree is irrelevant when 90% of business code is CRUD....
The coding puzzle type tests are less about whether they can craft a solution to the puzzle, but more about the process they go through at arriving at a solution.

Cyclopath
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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman



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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman
PostFri Apr 15, 2022 6:11 pm 
Randito wrote:
zimmertr wrote:
I guess I am the type of person that tries to find reasons to hire someone rather than reasons not to hire them though.
The criteria I came to depend on was a subjective question "Do I think I'm going to end up debugging this person's code at 2AM?" If the answer is no-- then hire.
zimmertr wrote:
Whether or not someone can invert a binary tree is irrelevant when 90% of business code is CRUD....
The coding puzzle type tests are less about whether they can craft a solution to the puzzle, but more about the process they go through at arriving at a solution.
Like many things in life (especially for engineers) it's easy to try and approach things systematically. If X then Y. In my experience, humans don't fit this paradigm. People don't easily fit into neat little boxes. I tend to conduct informal interviews where I simply ask people about their experience and then have them elaborate further when they discuss key job attributes. Not everyone has lived the same FANG/MANGA/WHATEVER career. Nor have they done 500 Leetcode hards. Most people are capable of learning on the job, even if they can't solve a puzzle under interview pressure in 30 minutes. I've never regretted a hire. I've also never had to debug their code at 2AM. Our code review process & fault tolerant infrastructure usually takes care of that.

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Cyclopath
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Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
PostFri Apr 15, 2022 6:44 pm 
zimmertr wrote:
Whether or not someone can invert a binary tree is irrelevant when 90% of business code is CRUD....
The database guy on my team only writes crud procedures. Thinks the best way is to move so the data to the application and process it there. frown.gif

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Riverside Laker
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PostFri Apr 15, 2022 8:22 pm 
I can't remember Assembly Language very well any more, but I still use a compass.

zimmertr
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Randito
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Randito
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PostFri Apr 15, 2022 8:46 pm 
zimmertr wrote:
Our code review process & fault tolerant infrastructure usually takes care of that
It gets a bit more interesting when the code is running on more than 100 million machines of various configuration. A lot of stuff that under static analysis that would seem impossible to fail, but under circumstances will fail in the field. Typically these sorts of issues will get assigned to an engineer for investigation when more than 40,000 crashes have been recorded. It is very interesting to make fixes for these sorts of issues as generally it impossible to get the code to fail in the lab. So you have to speculate as to the issue and craft a change that everyone hopes will not be worse. Then release the change into the world and then see if the incoming crash dump reports reduce over then next few months.

Cyclopath, zimmertr
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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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PostSun Apr 17, 2022 8:48 pm 
Randito wrote:
I think the % of people that actually understand how computers work isn't much different now than it was in the past. The number of people that use computers on a daily basis has vastly expanded in the last several decades.
I hope you're right and it's just me. Younger developers and testers I've worked with have this weird thing in common where they don't really use folders. Like in the file system. Content to have thousands of files together in one place. "The search is so good why would I spend my time making a place for every thing?"

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BigBrunyon
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PostMon Apr 18, 2022 11:58 pm 
Work harder not smarter!!!!!!!

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Cyclopath
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PostTue Apr 19, 2022 8:32 pm 
Here's a cool video on the math behind the Diffie Hellman key exchange.

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seawallrunner
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PostWed Apr 20, 2022 9:03 am 
I teach undergrads in a university in BC. Some of my youngest students are having a lot of trouble with a variety of university software: the university’s learning management system, on which my course is hosted; the textbook sites from Pearson and McGrawHill, the UI of various sites that they have to visit to complete their courses. The old trope of ‘my teenager can figure out computers better than I can’ is debatable. Some of the students that I have, who hail not only from Canada but also from other countries, are having trouble with the most basic tasks. Setting up an account on a textbook site. Finding a definition on a business strategy site. Differentiating between the various forms of email and text communication on the course site and the university’s own sites. All of these have proven challenging. GenZ may well be the generation that was “born into” computers, but they are having the most trouble of all the cohorts that I have taught during the past 20+ years. Perhaps it’s overwhelm (and that was before the pandemic) from all the different UI/UXes from each site. Perhaps it’s also a certain lack of curiosity that we had - figuring out existing computer systems all in one go. Meanwhile back in the early days of PCs and computers we were getting familiar with new systems and building upon older knowledge as we went along in our journeys of discovery. Like many others here, I bought a personal computer for home when they became available, and took computer courses in undergrad and later in grad school. I developed compilers and decompilers from scratch, wrote in assembly code, and coded in Pascal and in 4GL languages when I started working. Curiosity was as prized as logic back in those days - figuring out a problem and then making code work. Nowadays I don’t see the ‘making it work’ part. Computers are now closed systems, it’s difficult to get to code level on a mac or a pc (and who would want to?). When’s the last time that any of us used the Terminal function on our macs, or went into code on our PCs? It’s not usual anymore. With greater convenience for the younger generation, the ability to code it themselves is lost - unless students take coding courses to specialize in front-end or back-end development. My students know how to use some apps and social media, but when I press them to use any other systems, they get stuck easily, their questions are basic and frustration mounts quickly.

Joey, neek, Cyclopath
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zephyr
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aka friendly hiker
PostWed Apr 20, 2022 10:21 am 
seawallrunner wrote:
GenZ may well be the generation that was “born into” computers, but they are having the most trouble of all the cohorts that I have taught during the past 20+ years.
Wow. That's quite a story to tell. I would have never thought that. But yes I have had many struggles along the way with all the various systems I had to encounter at a late stage in life--especially during my various jobs at the bank in mortgage lending or during my military service or later retraining for various other career paths. So many computer classes along the way. And the knowledge was perishable. haha If I didn't use various applications or programs for awhile or they would upgrade and the interface would change drastically it was rough. dizzy.gif But generally with help from friends or associates I was able to make headway. I became appreciative over the years of the various challenges. I felt that it could only be helpful in the long run for my brain to get exercised so to speak. ~z Note:
seawallrunner wrote:
Curiosity was as prized as logic back in those days - figuring out a problem and then making code work.
I wanted to add that this was also key in learning new programs. One had to keep tinkering sometimes to get things to work. Also taking copious notes for pathways through the maze was useful. Then repeat and repeat the path until it became more rote.

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cdestroyer
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PostWed Apr 20, 2022 2:52 pm 
as I recall the pgp encryption program used the public key method,dunno if it is still around.... seawallrunner probably hit it on the head...there was a comedian years ago 'father guido sarducci' whose stick was a 15 minute college education on the air..he taught you everything a college grad remember 5 years after graduating. that is the sum total of genz knowledge now about computers and their infrastructure, registers, stack, flags data/address busses,,, etc...my last association with "higher level languages" taught me that they leave holes to be exploited. .... a cpu has timing for its operands how long it takes each code to execute and back in the old days there were some code words requiring more time than a similar one and you had to make the proper choice to keep the overhead time down to a minimum and this left no holes to be exploited. programming was tight. maybe today they have tightened the compilers and code down but I still think there are holes, why else keep having to issue security upgrades?

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Bowregard
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PostWed Apr 27, 2022 12:01 pm 
Interesting discussion about software becoming easier to use and users becoming less adept at understanding it. A few years ago a colleague of mine who was the guru of the type of work he developed (and science behind it) decided to move across the country. He offered to continue working but the company in their infinite wisdom decided they were not going to allow him to work remotely. I guess they didn't consider that hiring a replacement with enough scientific background and experience with a language primarily used 30-45 years ago might be challenging. They quickly learned that "kids these days" (i.e. young techie types) are smart enough to understand that taking a job like that is committing yourself to obsolescence. I was the unfortunate sap who had to fill in for awhile and the shock of having to remember how far we have come regarding ease of us was extreme. I never really thought about it in the broader scale but doing so now makes me think careers in computers will become even more stratified over time as the gap between machine level processes and modern languages gets larger. There is a market in there somewhere to address that need. It's easy to look at the consumer business model and say that the whole pipeline will evolve but so long as governments and other bureaucracies exist there will always be a reason to support old stuff.

Cyclopath, seawallrunner
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